This is exactly why I keep a separate /home directory. You can always slap it in another system and copy it over or wipe the other partitions and reinstall and all your crap is still there. Some of your dot files may need to be deleted, but should still work with newer program versions. You shouldn't need /var unless you put stuff like your website in there or files for FTP or mail files. Since I use web mail and have FTP directory on another drive that is not a problem. I only save /home before a new system load. And I do back that up prior to reload, usually. I've only had to save it from the dead once by breathing life back into the partition table, but then I like a good resurrection every now and then.
-----Original Message----- From: On Behalf Of Jon Moss
Since Fedora Legacy Project has gone belly up, I've been rethinking what to do with the workstation my daughter (a high school senior soon to be college student) uses. It currently has FC4 installed. I'd like to move her to Ubuntu (specifically kubuntu because she likes KDE) but I'm not sure if I can "upgrade" to it from FC4. I'm going to backup all of her files and photos to a CD or DVD, but I'm afraid I'm going to miss something (and I'd rather not back up the entire hard drive if I don't have to since the OS or distro won't matter any longer).
Has anyone ever done this? Upgrade from one distro to another?
Or do I have to just wipe the hard drive and start from scratch (like I would if it had Windows XP installed)?
Happy New Year!
Jon Moss
On Thursday 04 January 2007 13:27, Kelsay, Brian - Kansas City, MO wrote:
This is exactly why I keep a separate /home directory. You can always slap it in another system and copy it over or wipe the other partitions and reinstall and all your crap is still there. Some of your dot files may need to be deleted, but should still work with newer program versions.
This is becoming more of a problem as the GUI takes over a lot of system configuration and management. Your mail and address book, IRC information, IM configuration, and other important things are being stored somewhere in a hidden filesystem that can get as ugly to find things in as the Microsoft Registry. You don't just want to delete it, but you can't trust packages built by a different distro to handle the existing configs correctly, or to even put them in the same place.
On Thursday 04 January 2007 20:01, Jonathan Hutchins wrote:
On Thursday 04 January 2007 13:27, Kelsay, Brian - Kansas City, MO wrote:
This is exactly why I keep a separate /home directory. You can always slap it in another system and copy it over or wipe the other partitions and reinstall and all your crap is still there. Some of your dot files may need to be deleted, but should still work with newer program versions.
This is becoming more of a problem as the GUI takes over a lot of system configuration and management. Your mail and address book, IRC information, IM configuration, and other important things are being stored somewhere in a hidden filesystem that can get as ugly to find things in as the Microsoft Registry. You don't just want to delete it, but you can't trust packages built by a different distro to handle the existing configs correctly, or to even put them in the same place.
Well, KDE at least keeps all its configuration and data in ~/.kde Unless you're downgrading KDE, there shouldn't be migration problems there.
On Thursday 04 January 2007 19:17, Luke-Jr wrote:
Well, KDE at least keeps all its configuration and data in ~/.kde Unless you're downgrading KDE, there shouldn't be migration problems there.
Except older versions kept things in other hidden directories, and some distros keep kmail's mail in ~/Mail or whatever the system default mail folder is.
I have yet to see a completely clean upgrade of KDE that didn't fail to digest some obsoleted config file.
Hopefully this will all get straightened out as we move on to KDE 3.5.x and all the compatible apps get upgraded for consistent look/feel. but if you find something like this, then please report it to the KDE folks or the appropriate app. devs.
Brian
On 1/4/07, Jonathan Hutchins wrote:
On Thursday 04 January 2007 19:17, Luke-Jr wrote:
Well, KDE at least keeps all its configuration and data in ~/.kde Unless you're downgrading KDE, there shouldn't be migration problems
there.
Except older versions kept things in other hidden directories, and some distros keep kmail's mail in ~/Mail or whatever the system default mail folder is.
I have yet to see a completely clean upgrade of KDE that didn't fail to digest some obsoleted config file.
On Friday 05 January 2007 09:18, Brian Kelsay wrote:
Hopefully this [inconsistent file locations] will all get straightened out as we move on to KDE 3.5.x ...
Running for several months now as an optional upgrade on Mandriva. Current kubuntu is also 3.5.x...
I'm not comfortable with the way KDE is storing certain information, but I've discussed that with the appropriate people and I really don't have a concrete alternative.
There is a collection of important, version- and even program- independent information that is an essential part of a user's identity: Their email store, their address book, and their log-in info for various services like mail accounts, IRC, and IM. Too often, all that has to be re-entered by hand if the user does a new install, changes distros, moves to a different workstation, etc.
Packages are getting better at dealing with multiple possible versions of config files, but it's still common to have to remove all the old KDE configuration files (all of ~/.kde/) because something is conflicting or causing problems. I'm sure this is true of Gnome as well.
I don't know what the answer is, but there oughta be a better way.
(Regarding the identity config info that's independent of program preferences, like mail account logins and address book, and their lack of portability.)
On Friday 05 January 2007 11:36, Jonathan Hutchins wrote:
I don't know what the answer is, but there oughta be a better way.
On Friday 05 January 2007 11:42, Luke -Jr wrote:
Perhaps start a FreeDesktop project for creating common configuration files. eg, ~/.irc-client or such
I don't think we need binary compatibility; that precludes advances in how the info is stored.
Perhaps something from the old FIDOnet BBS days would be good - a common format (XML?) user-readable text file that is read whenever it's changed/updated and compiled into whatever format a given program uses; and is updates if changes are made within that program's interface.
On 1/5/07, Jonathan Hutchins hutchins@tarcanfel.org wrote:
(Regarding the identity config info that's independent of program preferences, like mail account logins and address book, and their lack of portability.)
On Friday 05 January 2007 11:36, Jonathan Hutchins wrote:
I don't know what the answer is, but there oughta be a better way.
On Friday 05 January 2007 11:42, Luke -Jr wrote:
Perhaps start a FreeDesktop project for creating common configuration files. eg, ~/.irc-client or such
I don't think we need binary compatibility; that precludes advances in how the info is stored.
Perhaps something from the old FIDOnet BBS days would be good - a common format (XML?) user-readable text file that is read whenever it's changed/updated and compiled into whatever format a given program uses; and is updates if changes are made within that program's interface. _______________________________________________ Kclug mailing list Kclug@kclug.org http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
A trick from the ms office flaws mitigation toolkit may fit here. It has become common in some workplaces for all the "that user" data on their desktop pc to live in the "My Documents" folder. The stark simplistic modeling of that is defined as:
Admin will *TRY* to back up your "My Documents" folder and *ATTEMPT* to restore it if your PC is updated or replaced. Anything you care about should be backed up by YOU using the provided backup methods. Implied of course it that anything NOT in the "My Documents" folder and NOT backed up by the user may be not there as NO attempt to save other stuff will be made. ****Oh, YOU are that "Admin" on your own system of course!***
The trick I propose then becomes simple.in concept at least.
MAKE the location of the data unique to a "user" reside in a defined "folder". Better still- a USB drive AND a defined folder. Then make a template for the new distro or whatever to fill in it's blanks from.
Some places even go so far as to run a login script that defines the user "My Documents" directory as residing on a network file server. The users are notified what is acceptable to store there and will be backed up for them. MP3s and AVIs and .pst files are not acceptable since they take a lot of space. Users have quotas to keep it sensible.
But most of us support family and friends or answer questions of acquaintances, so where do we tell them to put their docs and files on Winders? "C:\Documents and Settings<user.name>" or they will by default go to "C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator" and reside in the Desktop or My Documents directories. You can also do a search for the typical files someone will create to find places to look (.mp3, .avi, .pst, .xls, .doc, .ppt, .mdb) and don't forget to look for their pictures from their camera. I had to do a search on .jpg on the last one I rescued with my Linux box to find some deep directory with vacation pictures. You could fairly easily script this search if you do it often enough.
We used a migration tool called Desktop DNA when I worked for the City of KC, but it mainly gave you a stupid interface for creating a search on a users HDD, and you could tell it file extensions to look for. It always came up with too many results, meaning a few files that are on every PC, but you could create a sort of diff by scanning a base PC load. Then it would show you the results after the scan, you could delete some bogus results that you could see were from the system directories or whatever and then it would zip the files up into one file and let you name it after the user being migrated or rescued from the drive. Neat idea really, but slow. As I say, you could script this and exclude certain directories if it was worth the time. Or you could tell them that the drive is dead and all is lost. I always tried to find a way to save files, be the hero, make an ally, or require a favor at a later date.
As for Linux, all of a user's stuff should be in "/home/<username>" and anything that is anywhere else, the user should be able to direct you to it. I wouldn't work exclusively off of a pendrive like Oren, I'm not that paranoid, nor do I use that many different systems. But you should back up regularly to CD, DVD, USB or you name it. I'm preaching to the choir here. Every time I start using a USB drive or pendrive or CDRW to put my stuff on it, I end up needing to move a single file or set of files that is too big to put w/ everything else, so one more CDRW goes in the bag. Next I had to set up an FTP site so me and a few buds could trade files and I could upload to there. Then there are scheduled backups you can do with various free or purchased products.
This has turned into a ramble or a rant I guess, but I think I mean to say that most stuff is already organized on both modern Winders and Linux and there are different sized solutions for each need. Yeah. Find something that works for you.
On 1/5/07, Oren Beck <> wrote:
A trick from the ms office flaws mitigation toolkit may fit here. It has become common in some workplaces for all the "that user" data on their desktop pc to live in the "My Documents" folder. The stark simplistic modeling of that is defined as:
Admin will *TRY* to back up your "My Documents" folder and *ATTEMPT* to restore it if your PC is updated or replaced. Anything you care about should be backed up by YOU using the provided backup methods. Implied of course it that anything NOT in the "My Documents" folder and NOT backed up by the user may be not there as NO attempt to save other stuff will be made.
****Oh, YOU are that "Admin" on your own system of course!***
The trick I propose then becomes simple.in concept at least.
MAKE the location of the data unique to a "user" reside in a defined "folder". Better still- a USB drive AND a defined folder. Then make a template for the new distro or whatever to fill in it's blanks from.
On 1/9/07, Brian Kelsay ripcrd@gmail.com wrote:
. I wouldn't work exclusively off of a pendrive like Oren, I'm not that paranoid, nor do I use that many different systems. But you should back up regularly to CD, DVD, USB or you name it. I'm preaching to the choir here. Every time I start using a USB drive or pendrive or CDRW to put my stuff on it, I end up needing to move a single file or set of files that is too big to put w/ everything else, so one more CDRW goes in the bag. Next I had to set up an FTP site so me and a few buds could trade files and I could upload to there. Then there are scheduled backups you can do with various free or purchased products.
This has turned into a ramble or a rant I guess, but I think I mean to say that most stuff is already organized on both modern Winders and Linux and there are different sized solutions for each need. Yeah. Find something that works for you.
A few interesting points seem to come up in different forms of the same goal/s.
The fixed desk persons and the road warriors do indeed need different tactics. And in one place it may be considered tinfoil hat mad to run from pendrives,and another one it's wasted effort since they have keyloggers polled for each user session deciding if the session log itself needs investigating. In that case "who is the paranoid?" gets interesting. Oh- THIS is an example of my comment's reality.
http://www.keyghost.com/USB-Keylogger.htm
All the extremes aside some things do not change. The underlying goal set stays the same.To never lose information and never lose custody of sensitive information. As in innocently assuming you never will lose that CD wallet or pendrive. The safest course is to minimise locations where you keep "non public" data. And think hard on the risk levels . Money loss or time cost. Which data is considered which gets worthy of a new thread.
And about the "too much stuff for putting w/ "
It's likely to only get worse for some of us. The filesize explosion follows absurd curves. Want to lose money betting that users with 3 brandnew 1TB drives just put into their system will NOT ask us "how do I back up all that?"
"Is it paranoia if there REALLY are hostile people in your daily world intent on catching you at something-or fabricating it- so they can justify their salary?"
On 1/4/07, Kelsay, Brian - Kansas City, MO brian.kelsay@kcc.usda.gov wrote:
This is exactly why I keep a separate /home directory. You can always slap it in another system and copy it over or wipe the other partitions and reinstall and all your crap is still there. Some of your dot files may need to be deleted, but should still work with newer program versions. You shouldn't need /var unless you put stuff like your website in there or files for FTP or mail files. Since I use web mail and have FTP directory on another drive that is not a problem. I only save /home before a new system load. And I do back that up prior to reload, usually. I've only had to save it from the dead once by breathing life back into the partition table, but then I like a good resurrection every now and then.
-----Original Message----- From: On Behalf Of Jon Moss
Since Fedora Legacy Project has gone belly up, I've been rethinking what to do with the workstation my daughter (a high school senior soon to be college student) uses. It currently has FC4 installed. I'd like to move her to Ubuntu (specifically kubuntu because she likes KDE) but I'm not sure if I can "upgrade" to it from FC4. I'm going to backup all of her files and photos to a CD or DVD, but I'm afraid I'm going to miss something (and I'd rather not back up the entire hard drive if I don't have to since the OS or distro won't matter any longer).
Has anyone ever done this? Upgrade from one distro to another?
Or do I have to just wipe the hard drive and start from scratch (like I would if it had Windows XP installed)?
Happy New Year!
Jon Moss
Kclug mailing list Kclug@kclug.org http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
This is getting plugged in here at a later date due to sober deliberation. I am going to raise a proposal here that will also be used to begin a different thread- but is quite on topic here. If one is doing a migration from one distro to another that seems a good point in time to add a "userdata" drive. My admittedly painful lack of detailed "how to" not being of issue here, What's involved in copying /home, /var and anything else liable to have unique "userdata" in it to a new drive, and setting partitions to have the physical location/s be keeping OS on one drive and "your data" on another drive?
Would not having "your data" safe on a totally seperate device lower the worry factor of migrations? And it would seem that Gentoo power users doing frequent emerge updates would have lower risk of losing "their data"
Or am I far wrong?
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Brian Kelsay -
Jonathan Hutchins -
Kelsay, Brian - Kansas City, MO -
Luke -Jr -
Luke-Jr
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Oren Beck