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RE: PHP versus ASP.NET WAS: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Brian Densmore 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

One more thing. I am all for using mono to embrace .Net and c#. I believe we should take this opportunity to "embrace and extend" .net and c#. We should add features to .net and to c# to make it better, faster and more useful for the world at large. We should make these features available via GPL. What better way to take away Microsoft market share than by using their own tactics against them. Plus if we add features we can be sure they really do work in cross-browser/platforms, and they are … [View More]

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RE: PHP versus ASP.NET WAS: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Brian Densmore 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

> -----Original Message----- > From: Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) > > ... of the two I've seen more professional C# code than I > have PHP. I should probably take a look at these two projects and see > if there are any organizations tricks I can pickup from them. Well this would make sense since there are likely many many more people coding for Windows than Linux and PHP is probably more used by Linux/Unix people than Windows people. > Another thing is that C# … [View More]

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RE: PHP versus ASP.NET WAS: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

>Well it is really up to the developer to compartmentalize the code. That is >what we get paid the big bucks for. As far as scaling, take a look at >squirrelmail and phpgedview. Both of these PHP apps are quite professional >and phpGedView is considered the best genealogy web viewing app on the >"market". They are around 8 and 4 MB of code respectively and are quite >well compartmentalized if you ask me. I have done some tweaking to the code >on phpGedView on my site, and … [View More]

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RE: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

>I haven't tried ASP.NET yet. Did Mono write their own implementation of the >ASP library that you build the assembly against or are you supposed to use >the ASP.NET libraries from a Windows platform? They've reimplementation their own libraries. Like from the original post, if you want to try to run ASP.NET applications on Linux, monoForge is the place to go. I was also successful in getting it to run on my local development machine, but it was a pain. I do think it's possible … [View More]

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RE: PHP versus ASP.NET WAS: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Brian Densmore 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

> -----Original Message----- > From: Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) > > > ... It's been my experience that php doesn't scale up to larger projects > very well when compared to .Net/C#. It quickly becomes an > organizational nightmare. With C# and .NET(which includes > mono), it is very easy to compartmentalize your code any number of ways. For > example, put you entire data access layer in one assembly( shared > library), you business objects into … [View More]

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RE: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

>Also, just for kicks, try compiling your code >with monoc. The resulting assemblies might be more... agnostic. I did forget to mention this. If you are building a solution with visual studio, it is a good idea to recompile the solution with the mono compiler. The way build numbers are used in visual studio sometimes messes up the mono runtime, and compiling on mono eliminates this issue. This also demonstrates one of the real strengths of .NET / Mono. It is fun to write an … [View More]

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RE: PHP versus ASP.NET WAS: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

>>|Well, with ASP and PHP, you can generate all the HTML manually, so you >>can control how closely to >Can is the operative word here. How many actually do? My point was that this is a developer issue, not a language issue. >| The biggest advantage ASP.NET has over classic ASP and PHP is the ideas of Code-Behind, where you >| have a clean separation of your code and the presentation code. You have to do quite a bit to >| approach this in PHP or ASP. Also, managed … [View More]post backs / page states are quite nice. >The question we should be asking here is why is this necessary? >I'm not an advanced PHP coder (something I hope to fix soon) so I really >can't speak to >how easy it would be to do. The biggest advantage I've seen is in maintenance. These make your program a lot easier and cleaner to maintain. >Well I guess that depends on what you think a webscripting language should >do. True. For extremely small projects, I would say that php is just fine. Larger projects require something more, I think. >How do you figure the .Net debugger is cheaper than the PHP debugger? I >don't use a PHP debugger, >at least not yet. So I'm completely ignorant of costs. But if there is a >cost difference, it is >most likely only there so Microsoft can kill off all competition to .Net so >they can start >charging through the nose for the .Net debugger. Typical M$ attack pattern >(ref: Sun Tzu's Art of War :: Microsoft Press). I was comparing Visual C# Standard ($109 US) to the Zend Studio ($249 US). Both include debuggers. Although, technically, The Zend Studio debugger has problems because it can't connect to the database backend. >Overloading functions is taken from c/c++. Something that could be done >most likely with java code. My point was that you can do this using ASP.NET / C# and you can't in PHP. Not sure about PHP 5 though. Overloading Constructors can be very helpful sometimes. C# also has cool things like delegates, templates / generics (in version 2.0) and a larger framework that is easily extensible. It's been my experience that php doesn't scale up to larger projects very well when compared to .Net/C#. It quickly becomes an organizational nightmare. With C# and .NET(which includes mono), it is very easy to compartmentalize your code any number of ways. For example, put you entire data access layer in one assembly( shared library), you business objects into another, security and permissions in another, etc. etc. You can use a different namespace for each one to make your code more readable. And namespaces can be shared across assemblies. [View Less]

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Re: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Brian Kelsay 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

Of course! The Abacus was probably around during Sun Tzu's time. For the low, low price of $19.95 I can sell you the Sucaba computer. It runs off of kinetic energy and is self-charging. It is environmentally friendly and will not put nasty lead back into the environment when it is recycled. It's user viewing interface is easy on the eyes and the keyboard is designed to reduce RSI. It's lighter than the average laptop and more durable. Compute like the ancients, get a Sucaba today!! … [View More]

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RE: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Brian Densmore 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

|-----Original Message----- |From: Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) [mailto:jmcqk6@umkc.edu] |Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:57 AM |To: Brian Densmore; kclug(a)kclug.org |Subject: RE: Test Hosting Recommendation | | |Well, with ASP and PHP, you can generate all the HTML manually, so you can control how closely to Can is the operative word here. How many actually do? | | Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the cross browser experience pretty good for XHTML (Strict) | pages? Don't … [View More]know, haven't tested it. | | The biggest advantage ASP.NET has over classic ASP and PHP is the ideas of Code-Behind, where you | have a clean separation of your code and the presentation code. You have to do quite a bit to | approach this in PHP or ASP. Also, managed post backs / page states are quite nice. The question we should be asking here is why is this necessary? I'm not an advanced PHP coder (something I hope to fix soon) so I really can't speak to how easy it would be to do. | I'm working on a PHP project after spending most of my time recently on ASP.NET, and while I used | to think PHP was great, after working with C# and the .Net framework, PHP looks rather primitive. Well I guess that depends on what you think a webscripting language should do. | Not being able to overload functions, or having strongly typed variables, or any number of other | things has been a pain. Not to mention that the Debugger for the .Net framework is a lot better | than the debugger available for PHP (and cheaper, I think). How do you figure the .Net debugger is cheaper than the PHP debugger? I don't use a PHP debugger, at least not yet. So I'm completely ignorant of costs. But if there is a cost difference, it is most likely only there so Microsoft can kill off all competition to .Net so they can start charging through the nose for the .Net debugger. Typical M$ attack pattern (ref: Sun Tzu's Art of War :: Microsoft Press). Overloading functions is taken from c/c++. Something that could be done most likely with java code. | When it comes to the speed differences on your machine between Firefox and explorer - that is | something I've never understood. This is not related to the server at all, right? It's a | rendering engine issue, right? The server serves up the pages at the same speed no matter what, | right? Like I said, I'm not sure, and I've always wondered about this issue. Microsoft would like you to believe this. No it doesn't have anything to do with the server. It has to do with code coming from the server based on browser information reported from the client. In other words, the server creates *different* pages based on the browser. The IE browsers get extra code/data so that some functions run locally on the client machine. Whereas, all other browsers have to retrieve that information from the server, in a separate request. Hence slower performance. [View Less]

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RE: Test Hosting Recommendation
by Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) 16 Feb '05

16 Feb '05

Well, with ASP and PHP, you can generate all the HTML manually, so you can control how closely to standards the HTML sticks, and which standards you will stick to (xhtml, html, etc.). Unfortunately, ASP.NET does not generate strict XHTML, though there are aftermarket solutions to fix this. I've not tried this personally, however. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the cross browser experience pretty good for XHTML (Strict) pages? The biggest advantage ASP.NET has over classic ASP … [View More]and PHP is the ideas of Code-Behind, where you have a clean separation of your code and the presentation code. You have to do quite a bit to approach this in PHP or ASP. Also, managed post backs / page states are quite nice. I'm working on a PHP project after spending most of my time recently on ASP.NET, and while I used to think PHP was great, after working with C# and the .Net framework, PHP looks rather primitive. Not being able to overload functions, or having strongly typed variables, or any number of other things has been a pain. Not to mention that the Debugger for the .Net framework is a lot better than the debugger available for PHP (and cheaper, I think). When it comes to the speed differences on your machine between Firefox and explorer - that is something I've never understood. This is not related to the server at all, right? It's a rendering engine issue, right? The server serves up the pages at the same speed no matter what, right? Like I said, I'm not sure, and I've always wondered about this issue. Josh ________________________________ From: kclug-bounces(a)kclug.org [mailto:kclug-bounces@kclug.org] On Behalf Of Brian Densmore Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:33 AM To: kclug(a)kclug.org Subject: RE: Test Hosting Recommendation Ok. So how good are the pages on cross-browsers? I've seen a number of issues with .net web pages rendering very differently on Explorer and Opera or Firefox/Mozilla. I've also noticed some major speed differences between Explorer and Firefox running on the same machine. I have no problem supporting ASP as a server side page generator, as long as it is usable by all browsers equally. For this reason I use PHP for now. -----Original Message----- From: Charles, Joshua Micah (UMKC-Student) [mailto:jmcqk6@umkc.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:16 AM To: kclug(a)kclug.org Subject: Test Hosting Reccomendation Hello All. This post is concerning ASP.NET hosting on Linux. There is a service out there: http://www.monoforge.com/ I have a simple application running on my space. Here is an example of the power of this setup. I developed my solution on Windows XP using Visual Studio 2003 .NET. I compiled it on windows using the Microsoft .NET C# compiler. Then I simply copied my files over using an FTP client and it ran, on Linux, without recompilation. It has a MySQL backend. When I first uploaded my app, the MySQL connector was not installed on the server machine. So I simply copied the dll into the execution directory ( bin/ ) and my custom app found it and used it automatically - problem solved. The hosting is free for the moment, because this is currently a beta test. Once it goes live, beta testers will get some money off the final product. If nothing else, this is great for experimenting with. Have fun! Josh [View Less]

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