Wine, Whine, installs, aquariums and DOOR STOPS

[Steve Johnson]

Rick,

I'm a right tool for the right job kinda guy, I am not a zealot for a
particular platform - any platform. If it ain't working, I move on.

I can see from your post that you have feelings well beyond what works and
what doesn't for these machines and I make it a habit not to interfere with
people's religion on the grounds of that is how wars are started.

I will now bow out, and apologize if I have offended you by not liking your
favorite computers.

sj

>===== Original Message From Rick Palmer <SMTP:repalmer at sunflower.org> =====
>Steve,
>
>
>I guess my 10 years of experience with about every mac made doesn't count
for
>much.
>
>
>
>OS-9 emulation has not worked well in production for graphics arts apps
(the
>last bastion of macintosh), particularly anything that was not written by
the
>big three (adobe, quark, microsoft).  I was hoping for a lot more than it
>delivered.  Maybe OS-XI...
>
>
>
>That's not what you said...running graphics apps emulation... you said:
>
>
>Yes Mac OS is great as long as you don't attempt to run any real
applications,
>or network it, or do any real work with it.  OS-X is great as long as you
>don't try to use any Mac aps on it.  I'm in the GA business, so I know just
a
>
>
>teensy bit about what I say on this subject....
>
>
>Which is of course gross hyperbole.  I've been using, networking and
supporting
>pretty much all silicon forms for the last 20 years-including VAX, VM, VMS
where
>I started.  I can tell you with a great deal of experience which takes more

of
>what.
>
>If you're in the support biz you know that statistically Macs take 1
support
>person per hundred and PCs take about 4 per hundred.   So when someone
tells
me
>that Bubba in Pokamo once couldn't keep the Macs running I know that Bubba
was
>inadequate.
>
>In fact, most PC guys that "have" to support Macs  end up making more work
for
>themselves because--1. they have to in order to justify their job and-- 2.
they
>don't know what they are doing and winging it... making minor problems more
>work.  Many do it on purpose...you know that for sure if you work in the
support
>biz too.
>
>Now running high end graphics is another story.  Its a strain on any
machine.
>Windows has way more than its share of problems doing that stuff.  But the
>standard has been  and remains Avid on the Macintosh.  Moves to get video
>editing people to change to Windows has been nearly universally negative-or
>riotous might be a better word.  Not because they just hate
Windows...because
>they hate more work to do less quality.  Most mobile news crews are
converting
>to Sony cameras and iBooks now.   The facts are just not with this
Mac-is-a-toy
>notion.  But you perpetuate this urban myth and someone is going to quote
you.
>Macs are right in the middle of every job that needs doing.
>
>Another notion that gets my blood pressure up is the when people invoke the
>Xerox Parc excuse for Microsofts theft.  Apple paid for anything they got
from
>Xerox.  They hired Xerox employees to help with technology that Xerox was
>tossing on the scrap heap.  The Parc computer didn't use a key board and
wasn't
>written in anything useful to production of the Mac.  Microsoft stole real
code
>and used large parts of that very same unaltered code to make the first
>Windows...Mac code was still lingering in Windows 98...I don't know about
later
>versions.  Its pretty disgusting to hear Gates talk about intellectual
property
>theft when he pulled the biggest theft of the 20th century.
>
>I'm the first to say that OS X is a little disappointing to me as a Mac OS
and I
>don't see how common folks will master it.    But that's my criticism of
Windows
>and Unix...  If any company can turn Unix into something regular humans can

use
>then it will be Apple.  Bank on it.
>
>And finally.  If you care to look. Apple is doing better than any of the PC
>vendors that a year ago were going to bury Apple.   Still turning a profit.
>Still being the most innovative.
>
>The other stuff is a about a note I wrote sometime back which didn't show
up
on
>the list for a couple months...then I had no time to deal with it when it
did.
>
>rick
>
>.
>
>
>Rick,
>
>
>
>
>Not sure I follow the sunflower post in the same email, but I must be
missing
>something...
>
>
>
>sj
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rick Palmer [mailto:repalmer at sunflower.org]
>Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 9:48 AM
>To: Steve Johnson; 'kclug at kclug.org'
>Subject: RE: Wine, Whine, installs, and the like
>
>
>Steve,
>
>
>At 9:07 PM -0600 11/8/01, Steve Johnson wrote:
>
>
>Yes Mac OS is great as long as you don't attempt to run any real
applications,
>
>or network it, or do any real work with it.  OS-X is great as long as you
>don't try to use any Mac aps on it.  I'm in the GA business, so I know just
a
>
>
>teensy bit about what I say on this subject....
>
>
>
>
>This isn't a flame...just a long standing observation.  Don't want to get
into a
>Mac vs the world thing.  But anyone that makes statements about the Mac OS
like
>that simply hasn't ever use it or been around it.  You're repeating an
urban
>legend of the first order-created and maintained by Microsoft.
>
>
>Wine, Windows and other junk........
>
>
>I routinely run Windows  in emulation-under OS 9 emulation-under OS X on a
350
>MHz iMac/786 megs RAM.  Runs about 200 MHz fast.  :)
>
>
>Scattered files.....
>
>
>I think the beef with OS X for most Mac folks is exactly that scattered
file
>thing-Mac people are used to concrete places to put stuff which can be
thrown
>away in a snap if you don't like it-back to square one no harm done.   I've
>found that its easier to get a Mac user up to speed on a PC because they
have
no
>fear of screwing things up when they should be very afraid.  Converting PC
>people to Macs is more difficult because (formerly-OS 9) they were very
afraid
>of screwing things up when they should have been having fun.   My guess is
that
>Apple will be a dual OS company for quite sometime.  Maybe that's the way
it
>should be.
>
>
>Lastly and most important....
>
>Revisiting community/public networking/wireless .
>
>
>I do want to get back and discuss this seriously.  I posted that article
nearly
>2 months before it popped up on the list.  Recently we've been really busy
and I
>haven't had a chance to respond. So in a nut shell:
>
>
>Sunflower is a not for profit.  Sunflower has a long term track record of
>slugging it out with the corporate giants, improving/growing, and staying
in
>business.  Someone wanted to know what Sunflower brought to the table.
Frankly,
>Sunflower is the "public network" table right now.  All the rest is pipe
dream.
> If there is interest in shaping the direction etc then that requires
>participation.
>
>
>Sunflower is willing to finance things to whatever degree it can.  I don't
mean
>to minimize the financial commitment- it will be large.  Make no bones
about
it
>though-its a boot strap thing...but that's good.  That's why it can work.
>That's why you and me can play.  That's why the corporate giants will hate
us.
>
>
>We've been in discussions for a year with a national satellite TV provider
that
>needs Internet at apartment complexes where they can't put up dishes.  That

can
>provide a place to put broadcast stuff.  We could close that deal if we had

the
>manpower to actually get it done.
>
>
>Nothing should be on the slide.  We can't build it unless its all legal.
The
>big guys will shut us down if it isn't.
>
>
>I think those were the important points.
>
>
>All our effort right now is going towards becoming the first national not
for
>profit ISP.  We want to claim the title of NPR or PBS of computing. That
brings
>money and power to negotiate.  The national network is hot and we're on the
>financial clock tweaking the back end systems so we're swamped messing with
>those pesky hidden files.  :)  We will use the national network to build
out
>these wireless systems where ever there is interest.  Interest being
defined
as
>people who take the initiative trying to get things done.  :)
>
>
>end caffeine rant,
>
>
>rick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>At 9:07 PM -0600 11/8/01, Steve Johnson wrote:
>
>
>Nope, your not offensive, just omnipotent and pontificative.
>
>
>Yes Mac OS is great as long as you don't attempt to run any real
applications,
>or network it, or do any real work with it.  OS-X is great as long as you
>don't try to use any Mac aps on it.  I'm in the GA business, so I know just
a
>teensy bit about what I say on this subject....
>
>
>I do agree with your philosophy with learning, except I try to learn 10 new
>
>
>things a day.
>
>
>sj
>
>
>
>>===== Original Message From D. Hageman <SMTP:dhageman at dracken.com> =====
>>On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Steev Johnson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I have to deal with MAC OS too much already thank you.
>>
>>Mac OS is a great operating system and I think that the new releases have
>
>>a lot of potential.   Shoot almost every GUI shell since then has tried to
>>replicate it to some degree or another.
>>
>>> It must be great to know everything.
>>
>>Well, I don't know everything yet, but I work closer to that goal every
>>day.  Some people say I won't ever reach that goal, but oh well - you
>>gotta try right?  I get the impression that you found some of my comments
>>offensive - please look at placement of the smileys to assist you in
>>interperting my comments.  As for the rest of my reply - their is good
>>information in there.  I find it a wasted day when I don't learn
>>something.  :-)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> sj
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: D. Hageman [ mailto:dhageman at dracken.com]
>
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:27 PM
>>> To: Steev Johnson
>>> Cc: kclug at kclug.org
>>> Subject: Re: Wine, Whine, installs, and the like
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Steev Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>> > I saw the posts on WINE and I thought about the fact that the only way
>>>
>>> > I can bear installing software on Linux is to drink some wine first.
>>> > Now
>>>
>>> Well, if that is what you have to do then that is what you have to do.
>>> I
>>> recommend that if you think that you are becomming an alcoholic you
>>> switch
>>> to Mac OS.  :-)
>>>
>>> > Well, so does Linux.
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>>> Depends on the distrobution you run and what the philosphy is.  If you
>>> get
>>> a BSD style distro you will find that you have neat little directories
>>> for
>>> most major pieces of software with the binaries soft linked back into
>>> your
>>> path.  RPM/DEB based distros do spread files around, but if you know how
>>>
>>> to use your package tool you can find the files very easily.
>>>
>>> rpm -ql <package>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Let's take for example the MYSQL package as implemented under Trustix,
>>>
>>> > or any other distribution for that matter.  None of the RPMS really
>>> > WORK to get it installed, there is still tons of Mickey mouse to make
>>> > it work
>>> > - if it ever does.
>>>
>>> Well, sounds like you need to write the maintainers of the RPM and let
>>> them know that their RPMs are broken.
>>>
>>> > trying to figure out why safe_mysqld hangs.   What every happened to
>>> the
>>> > glorious days of DOS when everything was in the same %$&! directory!?
>>> > What was wrong with that?
>>>
>>> Nothing, see above.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Yes, I understand the shared data and the centralized config
>>> > can/should be somewhere else, but this is just a mess!  Whether it
>>> > gets installed under /usr/bin or /usr/shared or usr/local or whatever
>>> > seems to depend on how someone was feeling that day.  Much like
>>> > windows.  At least with windows, I KNOW there are only a couple places
>>>
>>> > other than the app directory that they are going to dump DLLs and the
>>> > like.
>>>
>>> And why ... because you have run Windows for so long.  It is called
>>> experience.
>>>
>>> > cobol.  If I can't figure this stuff out easily, how is the average
>>> > sysop ever going to be able to deal with this?
>>>
>>> No matter how I answer this question it will be bad.  I will pass ;-)
>>>
>>> Have fun!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>>//========================================================>>||  D. Hageman                    
<dhageman at dracken.com>  ||
>>========================================================//