Wine, Whine, installs, aquariums and DOOR STOPS

[Rick Palmer]

Steve,

>I guess my 10 years of experience with about every mac made doesn't
>count for much.
>
>OS-9 emulation has not worked well in production for graphics arts
>apps (the last bastion of macintosh), particularly anything that was
>not written by the big three (adobe, quark, microsoft).  I was
>hoping for a lot more than it delivered.  Maybe OS-XI...

That's not what you said...running graphics apps emulation... you said:

>>Yes Mac OS is great as long as you don't attempt to run any real
>>applications,
>>or network it, or do any real work with it.  OS-X is great as long as you
>>don't try to use any Mac aps on it.  I'm in the GA business, so I know just a
>>
>>teensy bit about what I say on this subject....

Which is of course gross hyperbole.  I've been using, networking and
supporting pretty much all silicon forms for the last 20
years-including VAX, VM, VMS where I started.  I can tell you with a
great deal of experience which takes more of what.

If you're in the support biz you know that statistically Macs take 1
support person per hundred and PCs take about 4 per hundred.   So
when someone tells me that Bubba in Pokamo once couldn't keep the
Macs running I know that Bubba was inadequate.

In fact, most PC guys that "have" to support Macs  end up making more
work for themselves because--1. they have to in order to justify
their job and-- 2. they don't know what they are doing and winging
it... making minor problems more work.  Many do it on purpose...you
know that for sure if you work in the support biz too.

Now running high end graphics is another story.  Its a strain on any
machine.  Windows has way more than its share of problems doing that
stuff.  But the standard has been  and remains Avid on the Macintosh.
Moves to get video editing people to change to Windows has been
nearly universally negative-or riotous might be a better word.  Not
because they just hate Windows...because they hate more work to do
less quality.  Most mobile news crews are converting to Sony cameras
and iBooks now.   The facts are just not with this Mac-is-a-toy
notion.  But you perpetuate this urban myth and someone is going to
quote you.   Macs are right in the middle of every job that needs
doing.

Another notion that gets my blood pressure up is the when people
invoke the Xerox Parc excuse for Microsofts theft.  Apple paid for
anything they got from Xerox.  They hired Xerox employees to help
with technology that Xerox was tossing on the scrap heap.  The Parc
computer didn't use a key board and wasn't written in anything useful
to production of the Mac.  Microsoft stole real code and used large
parts of that very same unaltered code to make the first
Windows...Mac code was still lingering in Windows 98...I don't know
about later versions.  Its pretty disgusting to hear Gates talk about
intellectual property theft when he pulled the biggest theft of the
20th century.

I'm the first to say that OS X is a little disappointing to me as a
Mac OS and I don't see how common folks will master it.    But that's
my criticism of Windows and Unix...  If any company can turn Unix
into something regular humans can use then it will be Apple.  Bank on
it.

And finally.  If you care to look. Apple is doing better than any of
the PC vendors that a year ago were going to bury Apple.   Still
turning a profit.  Still being the most innovative.

The other stuff is a about a note I wrote sometime back which didn't
show up on the list for a couple months...then I had no time to deal
with it when it did.

rick

.

>Rick,
>
>
>Not sure I follow the sunflower post in the same email, but I must
>be missing something...
>
>sj
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rick Palmer [mailto:repalmer at sunflower.org]
>Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 9:48 AM
>To: Steve Johnson; 'kclug at kclug.org'
>Subject: RE: Wine, Whine, installs, and the like
>
>Steve,
>
>At 9:07 PM -0600 11/8/01, Steve Johnson wrote:
>
>>Yes Mac OS is great as long as you don't attempt to run any real
>>applications,
>or network it, or do any real work with it.  OS-X is great as long as you
>don't try to use any Mac aps on it.  I'm in the GA business, so I know just a
>
>teensy bit about what I say on this subject....
>
>
>
>This isn't a flame...just a long standing observation.  Don't want
>to get into a Mac vs the world thing.  But anyone that makes
>statements about the Mac OS like that simply hasn't ever use it or
>been around it.  You're repeating an urban legend of the first
>order-created and maintained by Microsoft.
>
>Wine, Windows and other junk........
>
>I routinely run Windows  in emulation-under OS 9 emulation-under OS
>X on a 350 MHz iMac/786 megs RAM.  Runs about 200 MHz fast.  :)
>
>Scattered files.....
>
>I think the beef with OS X for most Mac folks is exactly that
>scattered file thing-Mac people are used to concrete places to put
>stuff which can be thrown away in a snap if you don't like it-back
>to square one no harm done.   I've found that its easier to get a
>Mac user up to speed on a PC because they have no fear of screwing
>things up when they should be very afraid.  Converting PC people to
>Macs is more difficult because (formerly-OS 9) they were very afraid
>of screwing things up when they should have been having fun.   My
>guess is that Apple will be a dual OS company for quite sometime.
>Maybe that's the way it should be.
>
>Lastly and most important....
>Revisiting community/public networking/wireless .
>
>I do want to get back and discuss this seriously.  I posted that
>article nearly 2 months before it popped up on the list.  Recently
>we've been really busy and I haven't had a chance to respond. So in
>a nut shell:
>
>Sunflower is a not for profit.  Sunflower has a long term track
>record of slugging it out with the corporate giants,
>improving/growing, and staying in business.  Someone wanted to know
>what Sunflower brought to the table.  Frankly, Sunflower is the
>"public network" table right now.  All the rest is pipe dream.   If
>there is interest in shaping the direction etc then that requires
>participation.
>
>Sunflower is willing to finance things to whatever degree it can.  I
>don't mean to minimize the financial commitment- it will be large.
>Make no bones about it though-its a boot strap thing...but that's
>good.  That's why it can work.  That's why you and me can play.
>That's why the corporate giants will hate us.
>
>We've been in discussions for a year with a national satellite TV
>provider that needs Internet at apartment complexes where they can't
>put up dishes.  That can provide a place to put broadcast stuff.  We
>could close that deal if we had the manpower to actually get it done.
>
>Nothing should be on the slide.  We can't build it unless its all
>legal.  The big guys will shut us down if it isn't.
>
>I think those were the important points.
>
>All our effort right now is going towards becoming the first
>national not for profit ISP.  We want to claim the title of NPR or
>PBS of computing. That brings money and power to negotiate.  The
>national network is hot and we're on the financial clock tweaking
>the back end systems so we're swamped messing with those pesky
>hidden files.  :)  We will use the national network to build out
>these wireless systems where ever there is interest.  Interest being
>defined as people who take the initiative trying to get things done.
>:)
>
>end caffeine rant,
>
>rick
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>At 9:07 PM -0600 11/8/01, Steve Johnson wrote:
>
>>Nope, your not offensive, just omnipotent and pontificative.
>>
>Yes Mac OS is great as long as you don't attempt to run any real applications,
>or network it, or do any real work with it.  OS-X is great as long as you
>don't try to use any Mac aps on it.  I'm in the GA business, so I know just a
>teensy bit about what I say on this subject....
>
>I do agree with your philosophy with learning, except I try to learn 10 new
>
>things a day.
>
>sj
>
>
>  >===== Original Message From D. Hageman <SMTP:dhageman at dracken.com> =====
>>On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Steev Johnson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>  Unfortunately, I have to deal with MAC OS too much already thank you.
>>
>>Mac OS is a great operating system and I think that the new releases have
>  >a lot of potential.   Shoot almost every GUI shell since then has tried to
>>replicate it to some degree or another.
>>
>>>  It must be great to know everything.
>>
>>Well, I don't know everything yet, but I work closer to that goal every
>>day.  Some people say I won't ever reach that goal, but oh well - you
>>gotta try right?  I get the impression that you found some of my comments
>>offensive - please look at placement of the smileys to assist you in
>>interperting my comments.  As for the rest of my reply - their is good
>>information in there.  I find it a wasted day when I don't learn
>>something.  :-)
>>
>>
>>>
>>>  sj
>>>
>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>  From: D. Hageman [<mailto:dhageman at dracken.com>mailto:dhageman at dracken.com]
>  >> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:27 PM
>>>  To: Steev Johnson
>>>  Cc: kclug at kclug.org
>>>  Subject: Re: Wine, Whine, installs, and the like
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Steev Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>  > I saw the posts on WINE and I thought about the fact that the only way
>>>
>>>  > I can bear installing software on Linux is to drink some wine first.
>>>  > Now
>>>
>>>  Well, if that is what you have to do then that is what you have to do.
>>>  I
>>>  recommend that if you think that you are becomming an alcoholic you
>>>  switch
>>>  to Mac OS.  :-)
>>>
>>>  > Well, so does Linux.
>>>
>>>  No.
>>>
>>>  Depends on the distrobution you run and what the philosphy is.  If you
>>>  get
>>>  a BSD style distro you will find that you have neat little directories
>>>  for
>>>  most major pieces of software with the binaries soft linked back into
>>>  your
>>>  path.  RPM/DEB based distros do spread files around, but if you know how
>>>
>>>  to use your package tool you can find the files very easily.
>>>
>>>  rpm -ql <package>
>>>
>>>
>>>  > Let's take for example the MYSQL package as implemented under Trustix,
>>>
>>>  > or any other distribution for that matter.  None of the RPMS really
>>>  > WORK to get it installed, there is still tons of Mickey mouse to make
>>>  > it work
>>>  > - if it ever does.
>>>
>>>  Well, sounds like you need to write the maintainers of the RPM and let
>>>  them know that their RPMs are broken.
>>>
>>>  > trying to figure out why safe_mysqld hangs.   What every happened to
>>>  the
>>>  > glorious days of DOS when everything was in the same %$&! directory!?
>>>  > What was wrong with that?
>>>
>>>  Nothing, see above.
>>>
>>>  >
>>>  > Yes, I understand the shared data and the centralized config
>>>  > can/should be somewhere else, but this is just a mess!  Whether it
>>>  > gets installed under /usr/bin or /usr/shared or usr/local or whatever
>>>  > seems to depend on how someone was feeling that day.  Much like
>>>  > windows.  At least with windows, I KNOW there are only a couple places
>>>
>>>  > other than the app directory that they are going to dump DLLs and the
>>>  > like.
>>>
>>>  And why ... because you have run Windows for so long.  It is called
>>>  experience.
>>>
>>>  > cobol.  If I can't figure this stuff out easily, how is the average
>>>  > sysop ever going to be able to deal with this?
>>>
>>>  No matter how I answer this question it will be bad.  I will pass ;-)
>>>
>>>  Have fun!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>>//========================================================>>||  D. Hageman                    
<dhageman at dracken.com>  ||
>>========================================================//