A Snow Penguin is off topic, but this intense exposure of sociological ignorance isn't? Windows sells because Windows works. Most of the time, for most people, who need it specifically for one thing or another. Linux can be made to work better if a) you're very lucky or b) you are or have access to a Linux guru. My dad tried Linux - I think it was a Knoppix disk I sent him - and he couldn't get his printer to work. That's a deal killer - and probably a permanent loss of a potential user. Not everybody would have an easier time using a Linux computer, even one running Gnome. There's a reason there isn't a "College of Conservative Arts".
We tried to use Vista. We (a team of 3 techs) couldn't get a brand new HP printer to work. That's a deal killer, and certainly a permanent loss of me as a user. (Note that Linux and Mac OSX had an easier time than even WinXP with this printer) Everything is a matter of perspective. Yeah, Linux can be a pain in the arse to get up and running, but once you get it there, it stays there. Many of our users are slowly migrating away from Microsoft products to open-source alternatives, mainly because of stability and consistency. We have roughly half of our administrative staff using a decent amount of OSS now, where 2 years ago it was just me. Every single one of them migrated by choice, and none of them are tech savvy. Granted, I'm the only one to go (almost) pure-OSS, but I imagine within the next year or two we will have a much more diverse set of platforms on campus. ~Bradley Jonathan Hutchins wrote:
A Snow Penguin is off topic, but this intense exposure of sociological ignorance isn't?
Windows sells because Windows works. Most of the time, for most people, who need it specifically for one thing or another. Linux can be made to work better if a) you're very lucky or b) you are or have access to a Linux guru.
My dad tried Linux - I think it was a Knoppix disk I sent him - and he couldn't get his printer to work. That's a deal killer - and probably a permanent loss of a potential user. Not everybody would have an easier time using a Linux computer, even one running Gnome.
There's a reason there isn't a "College of Conservative Arts". _______________________________________________ Kclug mailing list Kclug@kclug.org http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
On Monday 22 January 2007 18:24, Bradley Hook wrote:
Many of our users are slowly migrating away from Microsoft products to open-source alternatives, mainly because of stability and consistency.
We have roughly half of our administrative staff using a decent amount of OSS now, where 2 years ago it was just me.
They have you. That's choice 2 of what I said. XP is what Windows is now. Vista may be something different.
On 1/22/07, Bradley Hook <bhook@kssb.net> wrote:
We tried to use Vista. We (a team of 3 techs) couldn't get a brand new HP printer to work. That's a deal killer, and certainly a permanent loss of me as a user. (Note that Linux and Mac OSX had an easier time than even WinXP with this printer)
And possibly the reason is forced tribute to ms? Just quietly omit support for non approved" hardware. And unlike the FOSS world where all it takes is someone to write the driver - the "approval process" equals yet another cost increase for the upgrade cycle. . Even if it's not by evil intent the result is the same. A device we own stops being usable when we "upgrade" Even if we "just bought it" So the user cost of migrating to next year's OS includes? Not only the cost of the OS. It then needs new applications. How does that work? Because the old applications will not play nice with either the new OS or the printer required. Oh? yes- that printer that no longer is on the approved list. So - you are now replacing more and more to get up to date. Where does it stop? I submit that there are quite functional software tools for daily needs that will run on cheap hardware. Many of which sadly are legacy DOS or win95/98 yet, I challenge the FOSS world to get any OS and Applications package that equals win95 for raw usability on old gear. My example is a pentium 75 thru 233 laptop with under 50 mb ram and under 1gig hd. The concept of a GUI distro that will have an acceptable user response time and run on laptops such as described has not yet been demonstrated to me. But win98 despite all it's flaws works well enough for most net interactions at a simple text and browse level. Much as I do use Livecd's from laptops there is still a lower footprint for win98 than any user comparable Linux shown to me so far.. So show me better on such hardware! I want to be able to displace ms from many more laptops!
have you tried damnsmall? http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/ claims to be happy on a 486/16 On 1/22/07, Oren Beck <orenbeck@gmail.com> wrote:
I challenge the FOSS world to get any OS and Applications package that equals win95 for raw usability on old gear. My example is a pentium 75 thru 233 laptop with under 50 mb ram and under 1gig hd. The concept of a GUI distro that will have an acceptable user response time and run on laptops such as described has not yet been demonstrated to me.
And possibly the reason is forced tribute to ms? Just quietly omit support for non approved" hardware. And unlike the FOSS world where all it takes is someone to write the driver - the "approval process" equals yet another cost increase for the upgrade cycle.
As opposed to the cost increase created by multiple overpriced "MS Certified S/W Developers" writing new code for an upgrade that is not compatible with the older versions of the OS's.
. Even if it's not by evil intent the result is the same. A device we own stops being usable when we "upgrade" Even if we "just bought it" So the user cost of migrating to next year's OS includes?
The cost of the CD and the time it takes to download appropriate drivers. That would be the cost.
Not only the cost of the OS. It then needs new applications. How does that work? Because the old applications will not play nice with either the new OS or the printer required.
Well, if you would stop using Windows you wouldn't have this problem.
Oh? yes- that printer that no longer is on the approved list. So - you are now replacing more and more to get up to date. Where does it stop? I submit that there are quite functional software tools for daily needs that will run on cheap hardware. Many of which sadly are legacy DOS or win95/98 yet, I challenge the FOSS world to get any OS and Applications package that equals win95 for raw usability on old gear.
How about Linux, just for a start?
My example is a Pentium 75 thru 233 laptop with under 50 mb ram and under 1gig hd. The concept of a GUI distro that will have an acceptable user response time and run on laptops such as described has not yet been demonstrated to me.
I once had a couple of technicians who worked for me (back in the days when I was managing a large IT organization that I have since left) who mad e a bet between each other on this same type of subject. One said he could make a P75 work as fast as one of the newly purchased PII300 The second technician told him he was crazy. So they squared off. The first tech took the P75 and loaded it with as much memory as he could, added the maximum memory he could to the video card and swapped out the single disk drive for two disk drives that were the fastest he could find. When we fired up both systems the P75 actually worked faster than the PII300 and the second technician learned a valuable lesson. Processor speed doesn't mean crap if you have a slower component somewhere in the system slowing down the processor. The system will only be as fast as the slowest component in the processing chain. And yes it did cost the second technician a few bucks to learn that lesson. So if you want better response time from your older H/W then spend the little bit of money needed at a used computer store to purchase additional memory and a better drive to improve the user response time no matter which OS you may choose to run.
But win98 despite all it's flaws works well enough for most net interactions at a simple text and browse level. Much as I do use Livecd's from laptops there is still a lower footprint for win98 than any user comparable Linux shown to me so far.. So show me better on such hardware! I want to be able to displace ms from many more laptops!
Wow. I really don't understand this one. It sounds to me like you have things a little backwards. *nix OS's have traditionally been smaller and run much better on lower end hardware then does MS OS's. This has almost always been the case. Either you are not installing things properly or your hardware is having problems because *nix against any MS OS will run better on older and less powerful machines.
On 1/23/07, Phil Thayer <phil.thayer@vitalsite.com> wrote:
I challenge the FOSS world to get any OS and Applications package that equals win95 for raw usability on old gear.
How about Linux, just for a start?
Ok- When I mentioned usability - it meant to appliance operators. and it's defined as the majority of GUI actions working even semi logical. Drag and drop for example and Cut&Paste working between applications. Yes, windows does not pass the c&p across apps perfectly either . Yet that one alone embodies the goal- not a "who's better" brag point rather consider it as a target neither OS fully quite hits 100% on Why it was mentioned was to describe WHAT "usability" means for these comparisons.
My example is a Pentium 75 thru 233 laptop with under 50 mb ram and under 1gig hd. The concept of a GUI distro that will have an acceptable user response time and run on laptops such as described has not yet been demonstrated to me.
Wow. I really don't understand this one. It sounds to me like you have things a little backwards. *nix OS's have traditionally been smaller and run much better on lower end hardware then does MS OS's. This has almost always been the case. Either you are not installing things properly or your hardware is having problems because *nix against any MS OS will run better on older and less powerful machines. _______________________________________________
See above comments regarding usability and response time to the user's perceptions. As to the "not installing properly" issue- yes the guru level folks can tweak, recompile, hand select components and every metric of performance can only be improved by doing so. That however does not cover the box stock units . The piles of retired laptops that won't even load newer windows let alone our standards of Knoppix and it's full size siblings. DSL as Brian mentioned does "work" but is almost painful to use in it's "insert cd,power on wait for desktop" modes. OR "hand user an old laptop with CD in drive, they turn it on and it just works. I do NOT doubt that there may be ways of hacking down unused cruft to gain speed, but then we re-enter the world of "us" and upper level "us" at that. I'd like to see perhaps a "damn smaller" concept whacked down to maybe even only a browser and networking in GUI even lacking audio. So turning an otherwise dumpster bait laptop into a functional net interface. Yes- we won't have eye candy or idiot videos but the basic web itself before ADD/ADHD audiences demanded all the crap will work. After all- much of the crap we have been despising in some other threads won't work on 95/98 either. ALL of my comments are based on my self observations and personal experiences as to "what I and many others REALLY use a computer for the most clock hours of any day. For me- most of the time my mail is web based. It is simply the most hassle free default. And most of the daily reading sites are often chosen for a lack of flashies. SO we have me spending my time on webmail,a few websites,and some usenet often thru google. All of which shows that a mail client, a news client etc , audio capacity all cruft? IS an integrated browser suite like Mozilla embracing or missing the best way to do this? Firefox Vz Moz looks more lopsided reading what I just listed as my usages. Same concept applies to my major music listening- dedicated audio devices often just plain work where a computer will be so much a PITA it's often easier to turn the TV to XM480 and "Let there be music" It's truly amazing to me seeing how far we've come with "media pc" functions in FOSS. That said to underscore the divergence of THIS thread's past with an appropriate closer. "In trying to be all things to all people there lies a chance of becoming nothing to anyone"
On 1/23/07, Oren Beck <orenbeck@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok- When I mentioned usability - it meant to appliance operators.
Hmm. network drivers plus X plus lwm and instead of giving any kind of log-in the system just starts firefox? AJAX drag-and-drop kinds of things live inside the web browser (the ghost of a fifteen year old issue of "InfoMoment" screams "you mean the thin client?") instead of in the window manager, so they aren't a problem. Let the applicance operators use the google document editors if they must have productivity software. By the way, Briahn Khelsey needs to be told that the reason I am so crazy is that there is no "h" in my name. Anywhere. Okay?
On 1/23/07, Luke -Jr <luke@dashjr.org> wrote:
On Tuesday 23 January 2007 12:08, David Nicol wrote:
Hmm. network drivers plus X plus lwm and instead of giving any kind of log-in the system just starts firefox?
Ugh, what happened to the LOW-END requirement? Firefox eats memory and CPU.
Experiment for this evening: Download current DSL 3.2 ISO and burn to a CD. Boot my Linux workstation with it. It's a P4 HT 2.8Ghz machine with 512MB RAM. Way overkill for DSL. It boots fairly quickly on the 2.4.26 kernel from the CD, the longest part was waiting for USB probing. I bumped the default choice of 1024x768 to 1280x1024 to fit my display, and now I'm browsing with Firefox 1.0.6. So far I have yet to break 64MB of RAM in use, and no swap use. I may try adding on a more updated FF module and seeing how RAM useage changes. So far, other than CPU speed and screen size capability, this should be easy to run on my old P2 300 laptop, with just 128MB RAM. I'd have a lot of head room for bigger apps. Dillo starts at boot up, and that was around 30-ish MB of RAM use. Jon.
On Wednesday 24 January 2007 03:51, you wrote:
On 1/23/07, Luke -Jr <luke@dashjr.org> wrote:
On Tuesday 23 January 2007 12:08, David Nicol wrote:
Hmm. network drivers plus X plus lwm and instead of giving any kind of log-in the system just starts firefox?
Ugh, what happened to the LOW-END requirement? Firefox eats memory and CPU.
Experiment for this evening: Download current DSL 3.2 ISO and burn to a CD. Boot my Linux workstation with it. It's a P4 HT 2.8Ghz machine with 512MB RAM. Way overkill for DSL. It boots fairly quickly on the 2.4.26 kernel from the CD, the longest part was waiting for USB probing. I bumped the default choice of 1024x768 to 1280x1024 to fit my display, and now I'm browsing with Firefox 1.0.6. So far I have yet to break 64MB of RAM in use, and no swap use. I may try adding on a more updated FF module and seeing how RAM useage changes. So far, other than CPU speed and screen size capability, this should be easy to run on my old P2 300 laptop, with just 128MB RAM. I'd have a lot of head room for bigger apps. Dillo starts at boot up, and that was around 30-ish MB of RAM use.
Yeah, you've got a lot of RAM in your "low end" box. Over 32 MB for mere browsing is really overkill.
On 1/23/07, Luke-Jr <luke@dashjr.org> wrote:
Yeah, you've got a lot of RAM in your "low end" box. Over 32 MB for mere browsing is really overkill.
When did I write low-end? I thought it was "Way overkill for DSL." It does work in 32MB with Dillo, as it boots in just over 30MB. If you have a harddrive with swap space available the 32MB won't feel as tight. Anyway, if your goal is to browse in 32MB it is possible. Doing something more useful, like use GMail in the standard mode needs a modern browser and that can be done in 64MB. If a machine doesn't have 64MB Surplus Exchange will sell a 64MB stick of PC-100 RAM for $5. Heck, I've bought entire functioning laptops with more RAM from there for $5. Life on 32MB is possible, but it's so easy to get to a useful state with a modern broswer it's almst like making a big deal about not being able to browse on 8MB of RAM 5 years ago. :) Jon.
I guess I should add that S.E. will also sell you a P3 550MHz machine, with at least 128MB RAM and a 15GB drive for $20. And they'll throw in a free monitor. There isn't much reason to be limited to a bottom barrel low-end machine when there is better stuff available for less than a tank of gas. Unless one likes masochism. I can appreciate using very low-end machines for certain tasks, as I've got a pair of old Toshiba laptops that just can't take any more than 48MB RAM total. i've run DSL on those before. Jon.
On Wednesday 24 January 2007 04:33, Jon Pruente wrote:
I guess I should add that S.E. will also sell you a P3 550MHz machine, with at least 128MB RAM and a 15GB drive for $20. And they'll throw in a free monitor. There isn't much reason to be limited to a bottom barrel low-end machine when there is better stuff available for less than a tank of gas. Unless one likes masochism. I can appreciate using very low-end machines for certain tasks, as I've got a pair of old Toshiba laptops that just can't take any more than 48MB RAM total. i've run DSL on those before.
I was thinking laptops anyway.
On 1/23/07, David Nicol <davidnicol@gmail.com> wrote:
On 1/23/07, Oren Beck <orenbeck@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok- When I mentioned usability - it meant to appliance operators.
Hmm. network drivers plus X plus lwm and instead of giving any kind of log-in the system just starts firefox? AJAX drag-and-drop kinds of things live inside the web browser (the ghost of a fifteen year old issue of "InfoMoment" screams "you mean the thin client?") instead of in the window manager, so they aren't a problem.
Let the applicance operators use the google document editors if they must have productivity software.
By the way, Briahn Khelsey needs to be told that the reason I am so crazy is that there is no "h" in my name. Anywhere. Okay?
The summary of your comments to my understanding is calling for a "thin client". Ok- let-s work with this a bit- how thin can we go? What of a floppy based or cd based distro that has the minimal hardware detect to bring up a net session,then by default bring up a browser with any advanced config done thru web interfaces. That is, if the target users for this proposal even would do so. The kiosk mode locking is indeed a Very Good Thing for public users or the skill lacking relatives we support. Then again- an intermediate level of "are you sure?" guarded settings may cover the exceptions.
Ok- When I mentioned usability - it meant to appliance operators. and it's defined as the majority of GUI actions working even semi logical. Drag and drop for example and Cut&Paste working between applications. Yes, windows does not pass the c&p across apps perfectly either . Yet that one alone embodies the goal- not a "who's better" brag point rather consider it as a target neither OS fully quite hits 100% on Why it was mentioned was to describe WHAT "usability" means for these comparisons.
I think the Linux is probably the most usable OS there is once a person is used to using it. The problem is that most people give up after trying something that would work in MS Windows and it doesn't work the way they expect it to in Linux. If you truly want just a simple "thin client" to browse the web on only, then by all means use an old version of Win95/98. That is what that OS was built to do and was marketed toward.
See above comments regarding usability and response time to the user's perceptions. As to the "not installing properly" issue- yes the guru level folks can tweak, recompile, hand select components and every metric of performance can only be improved by doing so. That however does not cover the box stock units .
That is the job of the IT professionals on the job to provide the specifications for the boxes being provided to the users. If they cannot do it right maybe you should advise them as to what you would like on a laptop/PC. If the end users are not provided with a suitable solution fitted to their needs then they will not be happy with the results. If that suitable solution means that the IT staff has to tweak, recompile and hand select components to get the desired results for the user then that is what they will have to do. I would suggest making an image of the OS after the tweaking and using some sort of version control on the image so you can drop it onto a bare metal computer with relative ease so that you don't have to tweak each system that is deployed.
The piles of retired laptops that won't even load newer windows let alone our standards of Knoppix and it's full size siblings. DSL as Brian mentioned does "work" but is almost painful to use in it's "insert cd,power on wait for desktop" modes. OR "hand user an old laptop with CD in drive, they turn it on and it just works. I do NOT doubt that there may be ways of hacking down unused cruft to gain speed, but then we re-enter the world of "us" and upper level "us" at that.
I'd like to see perhaps a "damn smaller" concept whacked down to maybe even only a browser and networking in GUI even lacking audio. So turning an otherwise dumpster bait laptop into a functional net interface. Yes- we won't have eye candy or idiot videos but the basic web itself before ADD/ADHD audiences demanded all the crap will work. After all- much of the crap we have been despising in some other threads won't work on 95/98 either.
O.K. So why not try uCLinux http://www.uclinux.org/ which should provide what you are looking for. A version of Linux that is "whacked down" to just the bare essentials. By the way, If you have a car that is any newer than 1990 or so, then you already own a whacked down version of Linux. If you have a new car (less than 5 years old) then you probably have about 5 to 10 versions of a whacked down version of Linux already. In fact there are sites on the internet that you can search (with the whacked down version of Linux) that will explain how to connect to the systems in your car and install RPM's that will change how your car runs to run more powerful or more economically. Of course if you just want to by the chips that contain the whacked down version of Linux with those RPM's installed you can look in most car magazines and buy them and simply do a chip swap on your car (I guess we will call that a whacked down version of an firmware upgrade.)
ALL of my comments are based on my self observations and personal experiences as to "what I and many others REALLY use a computer for the most clock hours of any day. For me- most of the time my mail is web based. It is simply the most hassle free default. And most of the daily reading sites are often chosen for a lack of flashies. SO we have me spending my time on webmail,a few websites,and some usenet often thru google. All of which shows that a mail client, a news client etc , audio capacity all cruft? IS an integrated browser suite like Mozilla embracing or missing the best way to do this? Firefox Vz Moz looks more lopsided reading what I just listed as my usages. Same concept applies to my major music listening- dedicated audio devices often just plain work where a computer will be so much a PITA it's often easier to turn the TV to XM480 and "Let there be music" It's truly amazing to me seeing how far we've come with "media pc" functions in FOSS. That said to underscore the divergence of THIS thread's past with an appropriate closer.
"In trying to be all things to all people there lies a chance of becoming nothing to anyone"
I would HARDLY say that Linux is becoming nothing to anyone. I would venture to say it is actually starting to become all things to all people but most people don't realize it. The most used embedded OS is NOT MS Windows it is Linux. (In fact Windows only recently came out with an embedded version of windows in the last 5 years and it has failed miserably.) When you look at the server market it is NOT windows that is dominating the market it is a combination of Linux, Solaris, HP-UX and AIX. All of which are different flavors of Unix. Windows Servers are not the server of choice when it comes to a mission critical environment that requires such things as clustering and 5-nines uptime. MS doesn't even understand the concept of what a cluster is. The reason for that Linux has been exploding in the embedded and server markets is because the support that is provided through major computer vendors and software companies as well as the general users community actually far surpasses what windows can provide. So this leaves one market that Windows dominates and that is the home/desktop market which Linux and other flavors of Unix are making headway into. Personally, if MS wants to dominate the desktop market I don't really mind. The real work in the IT world is being done by the *nix systems that run the backend databases and servers. The desktop market is becoming more and more a "thin client" market.
On Tuesday 23 January 2007 16:10, Phil Thayer wrote:
By the way, If you have a car that is any newer than 1990 or so, then you already own a whacked down version of Linux. If you have a new car (less than 5 years old) then you probably have about 5 to 10 versions of a whacked down version of Linux already. In fact there are sites on the internet that you can search (with the whacked down version of Linux) that will explain how to connect to the systems in your car and install RPM's that will change how your car runs to run more powerful or more economically. Of course if you just want to by the chips that contain the whacked down version of Linux with those RPM's installed you can look in most car magazines and buy them and simply do a chip swap on your car (I guess we will call that a whacked down version of an firmware upgrade.)
Are you implying that cars have chips running some form of Linux? If so, I think they're late on complying with the license. I know at least my car's manual doesn't have an offer for source code, nor did it include any digital medium.
Are you implying that cars have chips running some form of Linux? If so, I think they're late on complying with the license. I know at least my car's manual doesn't have an offer for source code, nor did it include any digital medium.
The Automobile manufacturers are responsible for that when they build the car. Linux (in some form or another) as an embedded OS is in hundreds if not thousands of devices from you car to your MP3. My brother owns a Toyota Prius and has installed an RPM on it that allows him to access the system through an additional menu option on the monitor. The additional menu will give him more information on the system as well as allow him to run the car on all electric or all gas. It's a Linux OS that runs that car. Toyota takes care of your licensing, source code and digital medium. The ECU's that you hear about in cars are running a form of Linux. Sit and think about how many computers you REALLY have in your house and realize that 80-85% of them are running a version of Linux.
On Tuesday 23 January 2007 16:37, Phil Thayer wrote:
Are you implying that cars have chips running some form of Linux? If so, I think they're late on complying with the license. I know at least my car's manual doesn't have an offer for source code, nor did it include any digital medium.
The Automobile manufacturers are responsible for that when they build the car.
Correct.
Linux (in some form or another) as an embedded OS is in hundreds if not thousands of devices from you car to your MP3.
MP3 doesn't have a means to run or even contain code! ;)
My brother owns a Toyota Prius and has installed an RPM on it that allows him to access the system through an additional menu option on the monitor.
What monitor? Most cars don't have monitors...
The additional menu will give him more information on the system as well as allow him to run the car on all electric or all gas.
How about veggie oil?
It's a Linux OS that runs that car. Toyota takes care of your licensing, source code and digital medium.
Ok, so does the car come with the source on a CD, or does it come with a 2 year offer for it?
The ECU's that you hear about in cars are running a form of Linux.
Haven't heard about any "ECU"s... where do I get the source for them? :)
Sit and think about how many computers you REALLY have in your house and realize that 80-85% of them are running a version of Linux.
100% of them are... but they're not embedded...
Linux (in some form or another) as an embedded OS is in hundreds if not thousands of devices from you car to your MP3.
MP3 doesn't have a means to run or even contain code! ;)
Wrong. Any computer that performs a task contains some kind of code. Most of the time this code is called "embedded code" because it is contained on a ROM or RAM or some combination of the two. MP3's use an embedded form of a Unix OS to play the music. It isn't just magic.
My brother owns a Toyota Prius and has installed an RPM on it that allows him to access the system through an additional menu option on the monitor.
What monitor? Most cars don't have monitors...
I would say that you might be pretty impressed if you went down to the Toyota dealership and check out a Prius. They DO have monitors and they are right smack in the middle of the front dashboard. Not to mention that most cars have a form of monitor, maybe just not what you would expect the form to be.
The additional menu will give him more information on the system as well as allow him to run the car on all electric or all gas.
How about veggie oil?
The Linux user community hasn't written the code for this option yet. Give them time.
It's a Linux OS that runs that car. Toyota takes care of your licensing, source code and digital medium.
Ok, so does the car come with the source on a CD, or does it come with a 2 year offer for it?
The ECU's that you hear about in cars are running a form of Linux.
Haven't heard about any "ECU"s... where do I get the source for them? :)
The ECU is the Electronic Control Unit. It controls pretty much the entire engine. Spark advance, fuel mixture etc... The source code for that would be based on Linux but with a lot of proprietary code on top of it. You may be able to get the drivers for the devices that are on it off the web somewhere. I would caution you to test any changes you make extensively before loading them on your car's ECU.
Sit and think about how many computers you REALLY have in your house and realize that 80-85% of them are running a version of Linux.
100% of them are... but they're not embedded...
Your probably right about the traditional computers that sit on your desk. But what about the computer that runs your TV, microwave, dishwasher (not the kids), digital alarm clock, Stereo, CD/DVD player...Think about all the things in your house that are performing automated tasks that were not there 30-40 years ago. Almost all of them have some type of embedded OS and most of them are using a derivative of Linux now.
On Tuesday 23 January 2007 17:20, Phil Thayer wrote:
Linux (in some form or another) as an embedded OS is in
hundreds if not
thousands of devices from you car to your MP3.
MP3 doesn't have a means to run or even contain code! ;)
Wrong. Any computer that performs a task contains some kind of code.
But MP3 is a compression format, not a computer.
Most of the time this code is called "embedded code" because it is contained on a ROM or RAM or some combination of the two. MP3's use an embedded form of a Unix OS to play the music. It isn't just magic.
MP3s don't play on their own, you need an audio player with the proper codec to play them...
It's a Linux OS that runs that car. Toyota takes care of your licensing, source code and digital medium.
Ok, so does the car come with the source on a CD, or does it come with a 2 year offer for it?
...
Sit and think about how many computers you REALLY have in your house and realize that 80-85% of them are running a version of Linux.
100% of them are... but they're not embedded...
Your probably right about the traditional computers that sit on your desk. But what about the computer that runs your TV,
What TV?
microwave, dishwasher (not the kids), digital alarm clock,
If any of these are Linux-based, I certainly didn't get the mandatory source code or offer...
Stereo, CD/DVD player...
That's the desktop PC.
Think about all the things in your house that are performing automated tasks that were not there 30-40 years ago. Almost all of them have some type of embedded OS and most of them are using a derivative of Linux now.
I've never heard of someone's dishwasher, alarm clock, or such coming with a source code offer, let alone CD with the code or printout of the GPL. Unless they're violating the GPL left and right, I doubt many, if any, of these run Linux.
Wrong. Any computer that performs a task contains some kind of code.
But MP3 is a compression format, not a computer.
So MP3 is a compression format that uncompresses and plays itself with no assistance from anything else? What do you think is doing the actual task of playing the compressed music.
MP3s don't play on their own, you need an audio player with the proper codec to play them...
Now your just starting to see the light. What runs and executes that codec?
It's a Linux OS that runs that car. Toyota takes care of your licensing, source code and digital medium.
Ok, so does the car come with the source on a CD, or does it come with a 2 year offer for it?
The manufacturer takes care of whatever licensing issues are involved.
...
Sit and think about how many computers you REALLY have in your house and realize that 80-85% of them are running a version of Linux.
100% of them are... but they're not embedded...
Your probably right about the traditional computers that sit on your desk. But what about the computer that runs your TV,
What TV?
Oh yeah. I forgot. Sorry.
microwave, dishwasher (not the kids), digital alarm clock,
If any of these are Linux-based, I certainly didn't get the mandatory source code or offer...
The manufacturer takes care of whatever licensing issues are involved.
Stereo, CD/DVD player...
That's the desktop PC.
Which I'm sure is running some kind of OS. Or is it just playing the compressed music files off the CD/DVD with the codec?
Think about all the things in your house that are performing automated tasks that were not there 30-40 years ago. Almost all of them have some type of embedded OS and most of them are using a derivative of Linux now.
I've never heard of someone's dishwasher, alarm clock, or such coming with a source code offer, let alone CD with the code or printout of the GPL. Unless they're violating the GPL left and right, I doubt many, if any, of these run Linux.
The manufacturer takes care of whatever licensing issues are involved.
On Wednesday 24 January 2007 09:10, Phil Thayer wrote:
Wrong. Any computer that performs a task contains some kind of code.
But MP3 is a compression format, not a computer.
So MP3 is a compression format that uncompresses and plays itself with no assistance from anything else? What do you think is doing the actual task of playing the compressed music.
MP3 is a compression format, plain and simple. It's dumb, it can't hold code.
MP3s don't play on their own, you need an audio player with the proper codec to play them...
Now your just starting to see the light. What runs and executes that codec?
No, I already had it-- you're the one claiming the MP3 plays itself.
It's a Linux OS that runs that car. Toyota takes care of your licensing, source code and digital medium.
Ok, so does the car come with the source on a CD, or does it come with a 2 year offer for it?
The manufacturer takes care of whatever licensing issues are involved.
The licensing requires that the manufacturer include a source code CD with the car, or include a 2 year offer for the source code. Which is it?
microwave, dishwasher (not the kids), digital alarm clock,
If any of these are Linux-based, I certainly didn't get the mandatory source code or offer...
The manufacturer takes care of whatever licensing issues are involved.
The licensing requires that the manufacturer include a source code CD with the appliance, or include a 2 year offer for the source code. I didn't get it.
Think about all the things in your house that are performing automated tasks that were not there 30-40 years ago. Almost all of them have some type of embedded OS and most of them are using a derivative of Linux now.
I've never heard of someone's dishwasher, alarm clock, or such coming with a source code offer, let alone CD with the code or printout of the GPL. Unless they're violating the GPL left and right, I doubt many, if any, of these run Linux.
The manufacturer takes care of whatever licensing issues are involved.
Obviously not.
MP3 is a compression format, plain and simple. It's dumb, it can't hold code.
O.K. I should have been much more specific about what I was talking about. The device that I called an MP3 is in actuality called an MP3 player. Sorry for being so vague on that point. An MP3 PLAYER has an embedded OS in it.
Now your just starting to see the light. What runs and executes that codec?
No, I already had it-- you're the one claiming the MP3 plays itself.
Maybe we both already had it but we are shining the lights in each others face so intensely that either of us can see what the others point is.
The licensing requires that the manufacturer include a source code CD with the car, or include a 2 year offer for the source code. Which is it?
The do offer the 2 year support for the code. It's called a warrantee. If something stops working properly they will fix it. Whether it is a software, firmware or mechanical problem. As for the CD... They provide access to the software currently loaded on the car's system. In the case of the Toyota Prius, there is a serial communications port under the passenger side dashboard that can be hooked up to a computer and the system can be accessed from there. Why anybody who buys a car would want a CD of the Linux with their car would be beyond me. Most people wouldn't know what to do with it and would be complaining that it would not play in the CD player in the car.
microwave, dishwasher (not the kids), digital alarm clock,
If any of these are Linux-based, I certainly didn't get the mandatory source code or offer...
It is part of the warrantee. They fix it during the warrantee period.
The licensing requires that the manufacturer include a source code CD with the appliance, or include a 2 year offer for the source code. I didn't get it.
Show me where the license requires that an embedded version of Linux should include a 2 year offer for the source code.
On Wednesday 24 January 2007 10:07, Phil Thayer wrote:
MP3 is a compression format, plain and simple. It's dumb, it can't hold code.
O.K. I should have been much more specific about what I was talking about. The device that I called an MP3 is in actuality called an MP3 player. Sorry for being so vague on that point. An MP3 PLAYER has an embedded OS in it.
Handheld audio players do, but I doubt they run Linux either.
The licensing requires that the manufacturer include a source code CD with the car, or include a 2 year offer for the source code. Which is it?
The do offer the 2 year support for the code. It's called a warrantee. If something stops working properly they will fix it. Whether it is a software, firmware or mechanical problem.
That's not an offer for source code.
As for the CD... They provide access to the software currently loaded on the car's system. In the case of the Toyota Prius, there is a serial communications port under the passenger side dashboard that can be hooked up to a computer and the system can be accessed from there.
And the source code is on the system?
Why anybody who buys a car would want a CD of the Linux with their car would be beyond me. Most people wouldn't know what to do with it and would be complaining that it would not play in the CD player in the car.
a CD with the source code. so I can modify/upgrade it, obviously.
microwave, dishwasher (not the kids), digital alarm clock,
If any of these are Linux-based, I certainly didn't get the mandatory source code or offer...
It is part of the warrantee. They fix it during the warrantee period.
It's irrelevant if they "fix" the car. They MUST include an offer for source code, or the code itself.
The licensing requires that the manufacturer include a source code CD with the appliance, or include a 2 year offer for the source code. I didn't get it.
Show me where the license requires that an embedded version of Linux should include a 2 year offer for the source code.
From http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION 1. You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program's source code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate copyright notice and disclaimer of warranty; keep intact all the notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any warranty; and give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this License along with the Program.
They MUST include the GPL text with any distribution of Linux.
3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
You can only distribute Linux if you do one of these:
a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
a) include source code on a CD
b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
b) include a written offer to give the source code to anyone
c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)
c) Not applicable, as appliance sales are commercial. Embedded or not, the terms are the same.
It's irrelevant if they "fix" the car. They MUST include an offer for source code, or the code itself.
All they would have to provide is a copy of the Linux Standard Based image because the additional modules that are written for the application that runs on the LSB are proprietary.
On Wednesday 24 January 2007 14:21, Phil Thayer wrote:
It's irrelevant if they "fix" the car. They MUST include an offer for source code, or the code itself.
All they would have to provide is a copy of the Linux Standard Based image because the additional modules that are written for the application that runs on the LSB are proprietary.
We'd get Linux sources, which includes drivers. Userlevel stuff can be copied from the running system/image and replaced if need be.
On 1/23/07, Phil Thayer <phil.thayer@vitalsite.com> wrote:
Your probably right about the traditional computers that sit on your desk. But what about the computer that runs your TV, microwave, dishwasher (not the kids), digital alarm clock, Stereo, CD/DVD player...Think about all the things in your house that are performing automated tasks that were not there 30-40 years ago. Almost all of them have some type of embedded OS and most of them are using a derivative of Linux now. _______________________________________________ Kclug mailing list Kclug@kclug.org http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
Where do you find this? I know a _lot_ of embedded systems run NetBSD too... There are also a lot of embedded systems that run custom real-time OSs. Be sure to realize that Linux Is Not UniX. Jon.
Where do you find this? I know a _lot_ of embedded systems run NetBSD too... There are also a lot of embedded systems that run custom real-time OSs. Be sure to realize that Linux Is Not UniX.
Jon.
I stand corrected. Much of the older embedded systems were run with a NetBSD or RTOS on them. But Linux is becoming the OS of choice to migrate these embedded systems to. Go google "embedded linux" and read through he volumes of information. It makes for some very enlightening and eye opening reading. One of the more interesting articles: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-embl.html and http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/library/l-embdev.html Also the following site it pretty interesting: http://www.embeddedlinuxinterfacing.com/ Enjoy the reading.
participants (8)
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Bradley Hook -
David Nicol -
Jon Pruente -
Jonathan Hutchins -
Luke -Jr -
Luke-Jr
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Oren Beck -
Phil Thayer