Yes Chris, MySQL is OK. I found an interesting HTML comment in the source code for JCCC's home page, "<!-- I almost had a completely table-free layout. But, thanks to Bill and his wonderfully creative browsers, I've got this. --> <table class=3D'body' cellpadding=3D'0' cellspacing=3D'0' summary=3D'This table contains the navigation, spotlight stories and announcements of the web site.'> =09<tr><td><div class=3D'navbar'> =09 <div class=3D"menu">......." I love the name of this guy's global style sheet, <link rel=3D"stylesheet" title=3D'Site Standard' type=3D"text/css" href=3D"/css/trueblue/splash.css">. TRUEBLUE. He's obviously on the right path! Gerald has an unique and wonderful Web site. Appropriate for it's content. So useful it's artistic! Another example of why stereotypes fail. Some Philistines DO have home pages worthy of emulation. I investigated some sites purporting to be authorities on web standards and found them using tables for layout, for example, http://www.webstandards.com. Other sites, however, were trueblue, http://www.alistapart.com. When I scanned the source code at http://www.w3c.org, I was pleasantly surprised to find it wasn't laid out with tables. It doesn't make any difference who's example the club follows as long as you live up to your potential. I'd like to design a three column layout that collapses as gracefully as Gerald's ethereal.com. handuma http://www.handuma.com
mike@handuma.com wrote:
I investigated some sites purporting to be authorities on web standards and found them using tables for layout, for example, http://www.webstandards.com. Other sites, however, were trueblue, http://www.alistapart.com. When I scanned the source code at http://www.w3c.org, I was pleasantly surprised to find it wasn't laid out with tables. It doesn't make any difference who's example the club follows as long as you live up to your potential.
I'd like to design a three column layout that collapses as gracefully as Gerald's ethereal.com.
I'd love to see a CSS layout that fits my requirements. It'll be interesting to see what Jason can produce. However, I'm still trying to figure out what path the web design world used to get from the description at the top of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/ "The Semantic Web provides a common framework that allows data to be shared and reused across application, enterprise, and community boundaries. It is a collaborative effort led by W3C with participation from a large number of researchers and industrial partners. It is based on the Resource Description Framework (RDF), which integrates a variety of applications using XML for syntax and URIs for naming." to "...but don't use tables for layout, or else the whole thing comes crashing down!" If the sematic web can't survive tables, how can we expect it to survive _real_ threats such as metadata corruption? And I'm still trying to figure out how 200 lines of CSS are supposed to be better than 10 lines of table markup. BTW, the tables-vs-css controversy has apparently been going on for a while: http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_01.aspx
Gerald Combs wrote:
I'd love to see a CSS layout that fits my requirements. It'll be interesting to see what Jason can produce. However, I'm still trying to figure out what path the web design world used to get from the description at the top of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/
Semantic web != semantic design -- one is a technology, the other is a design method. They are wholey and completely unrealted except, perhaps, by philosophy.
Jason Clinton wrote:
Gerald Combs wrote:
I'd love to see a CSS layout that fits my requirements. It'll be
interesting to see what Jason can produce. However, I'm still trying to figure out what path the web design world used to get from the description at the top of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/
Semantic web != semantic design -- one is a technology, the other is a design method. They are wholey and completely unrealted except, perhaps, by philosophy.
OK, let me rephrase the question. What tenet of semantic design precludes the use of tables for general layout? Sorry if I'm being obtuse, but I really want to know. Googling has only turned up pages that tell you _not_ to use tables, without really explaining _why_.
Gerald Combs wrote:
OK, let me rephrase the question. What tenet of semantic design precludes the use of tables for general layout?
Sorry if I'm being obtuse, but I really want to know. Googling has only turned up pages that tell you _not_ to use tables, without really explaining _why_.
Tables are designed for use in displaying _tabular_ data -- such as one might use a spreadsheet or a chart for. For instance, a two-axis value chart. The existence of tags such as the <th> gives one an insight in to the designer's intent here. In semantic design, the desire is to maintain the /meaning/ of the page even when viewed without style. That is, when it is serialized. When a table that doesn't have tabular data in it is serialized it _may_ happen to be serialized in such a way that it is meaningful, but the vast majority of times it will be serialized in a manner which is neither structured nor meaningful. For instance, consider ethereal.com as it is now: -------8<-------------------------------------------------------------- Ethereal The world's most popular network protocol analyzer Search: ____________ [go-button.gif]-Submit Mirrors: [Choose Wisely] Go Home | Introduction | Download | Documentation | Lists | FAQ | Development | Wiki Latest Release: 0.10.7 Resources Introduction Download Documentation Mailing Lists FAQs Development News Advisories Publications Search Wiki Main site hosted by Network Integration Services, Inc. Powerful Multi-Platform Analysis Ethereal is used by network professionals around the world for troubleshooting, analysis, software and protocol development, and education. It has all of the standard features you would expect in a -------8<-------------------------------------------------------------- Now, a couple of thoughts. You've placed the things you see before your content "Powerful Multi-Platform Analysis" there because they make sense in your visual layout; rendered above, though, not so much. For instance, if I were looking at this on an 16-line cell phone, I'd see three pages of data before I got to the main content area every time I opened a page in the site. If you were concerned with the cell phone user's experience on your site (I know it probably doesn't really matter all that much for ethereal.com) then you might consider moving the auxiliary things like the mirrors list and the 'hosted by' message to the end of the page. You would also move the expanded resources list to the end rather than repeating it immediately after the short version. These are things that you don't think about if you do table layout because you only see the significance of the data as it relates to its visual position on the page. The mirrors list, the hosted by message, the repeated link information are all well-placed visually because they are off-center. The main content area draws the focus in the visual layout and the other stuff 'surrounds' it providing for context and additional information. The same ideas you used for the visual version can be applied to the serialized version. In short, the design goal is: short header (with skip links) followed by the content (in a meaningful outline form) followed by supporting links and resources (in outline form).
Wow am I ever sorry I brought it up. In my opinion, its now very obvious why the kclug site is static and visually archaic. The window of opportunity I had for involvement has passed, therefore I withdrawal my contribution and respectfully decline any future involvement. I have several large projects starting this week and will be unable to contribute to this specific project - as I feel unless either someone concedes acceptance or someone mandates the acceptable minimal standards compliance this argument will continue until someone dies of exhaustion. Good luck, and I regret I could not make a positive change in the overall appearance of the KCLUG presentation. Regards, Steven On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:20:43 -0600, Jason Clinton <me@jasonclinton.com> wrote:
Gerald Combs wrote:
OK, let me rephrase the question. What tenet of semantic design precludes the use of tables for general layout?
Sorry if I'm being obtuse, but I really want to know. Googling has only turned up pages that tell you _not_ to use tables, without really explaining _why_.
Tables are designed for use in displaying _tabular_ data -- such as one might use a spreadsheet or a chart for. For instance, a two-axis value chart. The existence of tags such as the <th> gives one an insight in to the designer's intent here.
In semantic design, the desire is to maintain the /meaning/ of the page even when viewed without style. That is, when it is serialized. When a table that doesn't have tabular data in it is serialized it _may_ happen to be serialized in such a way that it is meaningful, but the vast majority of times it will be serialized in a manner which is neither structured nor meaningful.
For instance, consider ethereal.com as it is now:
-------8<-------------------------------------------------------------- Ethereal
The world's most popular network protocol analyzer
Search: ____________ [go-button.gif]-Submit Mirrors: [Choose Wisely] Go
Home | Introduction | Download | Documentation | Lists | FAQ | Development | Wiki
Latest Release: 0.10.7
Resources
Introduction Download Documentation Mailing Lists FAQs Development News Advisories Publications Search Wiki
Main site hosted by
Network Integration Services, Inc.
Powerful Multi-Platform Analysis
Ethereal is used by network professionals around the world for troubleshooting, analysis, software and protocol development, and education. It has all of the standard features you would expect in a -------8<--------------------------------------------------------------
Now, a couple of thoughts. You've placed the things you see before your content "Powerful Multi-Platform Analysis" there because they make sense in your visual layout; rendered above, though, not so much. For instance, if I were looking at this on an 16-line cell phone, I'd see three pages of data before I got to the main content area every time I opened a page in the site.
If you were concerned with the cell phone user's experience on your site (I know it probably doesn't really matter all that much for ethereal.com) then you might consider moving the auxiliary things like the mirrors list and the 'hosted by' message to the end of the page. You would also move the expanded resources list to the end rather than repeating it immediately after the short version.
These are things that you don't think about if you do table layout because you only see the significance of the data as it relates to its visual position on the page. The mirrors list, the hosted by message, the repeated link information are all well-placed visually because they are off-center. The main content area draws the focus in the visual layout and the other stuff 'surrounds' it providing for context and additional information. The same ideas you used for the visual version can be applied to the serialized version.
In short, the design goal is: short header (with skip links) followed by the content (in a meaningful outline form) followed by supporting links and resources (in outline form).
_______________________________________________ Kclug mailing list Kclug@kclug.org http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
I wouldn't mind stepping in for Steven. Standards are the biggest thing that seems to be a key point in why not to change to a forums like page. I wouldn't mind learning and possibly implementing a replacement site. If not a new face adding to the old. Jonathan On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:25:48 -0600, Steven Hildreth <sphildreth@gmail.com> wrote:
Wow am I ever sorry I brought it up. In my opinion, its now very obvious why the kclug site is static and visually archaic.
The window of opportunity I had for involvement has passed, therefore I withdrawal my contribution and respectfully decline any future involvement. I have several large projects starting this week and will be unable to contribute to this specific project - as I feel unless either someone concedes acceptance or someone mandates the acceptable minimal standards compliance this argument will continue until someone dies of exhaustion.
Good luck, and I regret I could not make a positive change in the overall appearance of the KCLUG presentation.
Regards, Steven
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:20:43 -0600, Jason Clinton <me@jasonclinton.com> wrote:
Gerald Combs wrote:
OK, let me rephrase the question. What tenet of semantic design precludes the use of tables for general layout?
Sorry if I'm being obtuse, but I really want to know. Googling has only turned up pages that tell you _not_ to use tables, without really explaining _why_.
Tables are designed for use in displaying _tabular_ data -- such as one might use a spreadsheet or a chart for. For instance, a two-axis value chart. The existence of tags such as the <th> gives one an insight in to the designer's intent here.
In semantic design, the desire is to maintain the /meaning/ of the page even when viewed without style. That is, when it is serialized. When a table that doesn't have tabular data in it is serialized it _may_ happen to be serialized in such a way that it is meaningful, but the vast majority of times it will be serialized in a manner which is neither structured nor meaningful.
For instance, consider ethereal.com as it is now:
-------8<-------------------------------------------------------------- Ethereal
The world's most popular network protocol analyzer
Search: ____________ [go-button.gif]-Submit Mirrors: [Choose Wisely] Go
Home | Introduction | Download | Documentation | Lists | FAQ | Development | Wiki
Latest Release: 0.10.7
Resources
Introduction Download Documentation Mailing Lists FAQs Development News Advisories Publications Search Wiki
Main site hosted by
Network Integration Services, Inc.
Powerful Multi-Platform Analysis
Ethereal is used by network professionals around the world for troubleshooting, analysis, software and protocol development, and education. It has all of the standard features you would expect in a -------8<--------------------------------------------------------------
Now, a couple of thoughts. You've placed the things you see before your content "Powerful Multi-Platform Analysis" there because they make sense in your visual layout; rendered above, though, not so much. For instance, if I were looking at this on an 16-line cell phone, I'd see three pages of data before I got to the main content area every time I opened a page in the site.
If you were concerned with the cell phone user's experience on your site (I know it probably doesn't really matter all that much for ethereal.com) then you might consider moving the auxiliary things like the mirrors list and the 'hosted by' message to the end of the page. You would also move the expanded resources list to the end rather than repeating it immediately after the short version.
These are things that you don't think about if you do table layout because you only see the significance of the data as it relates to its visual position on the page. The mirrors list, the hosted by message, the repeated link information are all well-placed visually because they are off-center. The main content area draws the focus in the visual layout and the other stuff 'surrounds' it providing for context and additional information. The same ideas you used for the visual version can be applied to the serialized version.
In short, the design goal is: short header (with skip links) followed by the content (in a meaningful outline form) followed by supporting links and resources (in outline form).
_______________________________________________ Kclug mailing list Kclug@kclug.org http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
_______________________________________________ Kclug mailing list Kclug@kclug.org http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
-- dj_goku -www.djgoku.com- -www.tektronic.org-
-----Original Message----- From: kclug-bounces@kclug.org [mailto:kclug-bounces@kclug.org] On Behalf Of djgoku Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 10:31 PM To: Steven Hildreth; kclug@kclug.org Subject: Re: Proposed Web site redesign (beta)
I wouldn't mind stepping in for Steven. Standards are the biggest thing that seems to be a key point in why not to change to a forums like page. I wouldn't mind learning and possibly implementing a replacement site. If not a new face adding to the old.
Ah yes, standards. What's so wonderful about standards? There are millions to choose from. D.
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:25:48 -0600, Steven Hildreth <sphildreth@gmail.com> wrote:
Wow am I ever sorry I brought it up. In my opinion, its now very obvious why the kclug site is static and visually archaic.
you say that like it's a bad thing -- David L Nicol "Factions are likely, in the course of time, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people, and to usurp for themselves the reins of government; destroying afterward the very engines which have lifted them to unjust domination." -- George Washington
participants (7)
-
David Nicol -
djgoku -
Dustin Decker -
Gerald Combs -
Jason Clinton -
mike＠handuma.com -
Steven Hildreth