<div dir="ltr">I don't get what your anecdote about IHOP means. So because you saw someone you _suspect_ was illegal simply because he didn't speak English (huh?) working at a job where he made minimum+ wages, then therefore illegals aren't doing low-paid work anywhere?<br>
<br>I appreciate that you, through obvious keen deductive reasoning, have deduced someone's immigration status simply via their language abilities, but I think you fail to realize that just because you know two examples doesn't make your case typical. The reality is that the garment industry (though not so much any more, as it moved overseas) and crop harvesting employ many, many illegal immigrants, and they usually aren't paid minimum wage.<br>
<br>As far as working two jobs go, apparently you've just had it easy in life. I worked two jobs (loaded trucks and worked at Pizza Hut) for five years while paying my way through college. I also speak Spanish. Hrm, does that make me an illegal immigrant?!<br>
<br>You probably don't work on a fruit farm. I don't either. However, I happen to know that fruit picking is overwhelmingly done by illegal immigrants, as the pay is extremely low. I also believe a lot of harvesting of other crops are done by "migrant workers", which are also poorly paid and is another way of saying "illegal immigrant".<br>
<br>Jeffrey.<br><br>P.S. Please learn to use paragraphs more or we might suspect you of being an illegal immigrant based upon your poor mastery of English...<br><br>P.P.S. I LOLed when you said "people like to hate the Bush tax cuts, but they are working." How is it that they're "working"? Are they _designed_ to ruin the economy and bog us down in an unnecessary war? Because if that was the plan, apparently they worked!<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Jon Pruente <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jdpruente@gmail.com">jdpruente@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Wait, wait, wait. This is getting way off topic but I can't let some<br>
of these hollow arguments rest. "The jobs we don't want to do"<br>
argument is false. All of us (or, most of us) started working at as a<br>
young person in a low paying job. Fast food, menial service work,<br>
simple manual labor. Many of those jobs are being filled by illegals<br>
who work multiple of those jobs, and thus take the place of at least<br>
one or two, or even more, Americans. I have direct proof of such<br>
actions, as a personal friend worked as a manger at McDs, and<br>
recognized a couple of his low-paid grill workers working other hours<br>
down the street at IHOP in nearly the same job while I was there with<br>
him. No second hand story, I was with him when he saw them. It<br>
happens. They paid their taxes, but could hardly speak a whisp of<br>
English, they were so fresh from over the border. Have you ever been<br>
in the construction industry? Ever seen stucco, esp. the EIFS stuff<br>
that goes on with a backing of styrofoam? One large local outfit runs<br>
a crew of Ecuadorians or Guatemalans to do that for them. That kind<br>
of work is a $15-20/hr job for a regular stucco application<br>
contractor, not some cheap minimum income job. I know the head<br>
contractor that runs the crew. He likes to tell people that "they pay<br>
their taxes" as a way of deflecting the issue. He NEVER says if they<br>
are *legal* or not. So do a lot of the guys running roofing crews.<br>
Paying taxes != legal status.<br>
<br>
The latest taxes stats that I've seen (for 2006) showed that the top<br>
1% of tax payers paid almost half the taxes paid. That's nearly<br>
double the amount paid when taxes were higher under Carter. People<br>
like to hate the Bush tax cuts, but they are working. The proof is in<br>
the pudding. The top 51% of tax payers? They pay 97.something% of<br>
all taxes paid. That means that 49% of all tax payers account for<br>
under 3% of taxes paid, and guess which jobs are the ones in that<br>
bracket? The low paying ones you'd like to give away to the illegals<br>
that you claim will fill the coffers with tax money, plus all the<br>
other low-middle income jobs up to around $75K or so, IIRC.<br>
<br>
You can have an opinion on how you *think* the world should work, but<br>
those of us out there in the real world have to deal with the world as<br>
it is. You can argue opinions, but you can't argue facts and direct<br>
observations.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Jon.<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br>
On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 3:04 PM, Phil Thayer <<a href="mailto:phil.thayer@vitalsite.com">phil.thayer@vitalsite.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Well, I am sorry to hear that you have been laboring for so long below<br>
> minimum wage.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> If I live in a nice house and obviously have the means to help others, and<br>
> there are people that come to my door for help, if I do not answer the door<br>
> then I am being irresponsible. It is not a bad thing to have money and be<br>
> wealthy (relative to the countries we are discussing we are very wealthy),<br>
> it is another thing to be responsible with that wealth and not use it for<br>
> the betterment of others. I don't understand people who feel so threatened<br>
> by people from other countries coming over here to try and make a better<br>
> life for their families back in their countries. Personally, I admire them<br>
> for having the courage to do what is necessary in life to try and give their<br>
> kids a better life. If they make the money here to send their kids to a<br>
> better school, then maybe their kids will not be coming here to work but<br>
> will be working in their own country. Probably doing the jobs that we will<br>
> not be able to do in the future because of the lowering of the educational<br>
> systems here in the US.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Phil<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> From: James Sissel [mailto:<a href="mailto:jimsissel@yahoo.com">jimsissel@yahoo.com</a>]<br>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 2:45 PM<br>
> To: Phil Thayer<br>
> Subject: RE: Reply from Congressman Emanuel Cleaver concerning<br>
> OrphanWorksActof 2008<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> And have you ever worked one of "those" jobs? I have for years and your<br>
> arguments are very hollow. Let them stay in their own country and make their<br>
> own contry better. Just because you live in a shit house doesn't give you<br>
> the right to break into my nice house and live there.<br>
><br>
> Phil Thayer <<a href="mailto:phil.thayer@vitalsite.com">phil.thayer@vitalsite.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I agree with you. However, when the procedure to become legal becomes so<br>
> cumbersome that a person's family may starve or otherwise not survive, then<br>
> it becomes a necessity to them. At the same time there are jobs here that<br>
> due to the type of work it is and the pay scale nobody is willing to take<br>
> except the people who are desperate enough to put their lives at risk to<br>
> come here and work them. The combination of these two elements mean one of<br>
> two things will happen. Either we will have a continuing influx of illegal<br>
> aliens doing the work that nobody else wants to do or the jobs that nobody<br>
> else wants to do will be moved overseas and everyone will be mad about jobs<br>
> moving overseas. At least of the illegal aliens are here in the US working<br>
> they will be paying taxes just like we do. If the jobs go overseas we will<br>
> not have that tax revenue and all of our taxes will go up.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Phil<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> From: <a href="mailto:kclug-bounces@kclug.org">kclug-bounces@kclug.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:kclug-bounces@kclug.org">kclug-bounces@kclug.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
> Kelsay, Brian - Kansas City, MO<br>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 2:19 PM<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:kclug@kclug.org">kclug@kclug.org</a><br>
> Subject: RE: Reply from Congressman Emanuel Cleaver concerning<br>
> OrphanWorksActof 2008<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Not to be political, but the key part of the phrase is "illegal". If a<br>
> person is not in a country legally, then they should have a different set of<br>
> expectations about how the society they've invaded will react to them. An<br>
> illegal alien from any country cannot expect to receive the same benefits as<br>
> a legal immigrant or a natural citizen. Por exemplo, I cannot go to Mexico<br>
> for anything longer than a brief visit, although a visa may not be<br>
> required. And the US requires some proof of citizenship upon reentry. I<br>
> can drive to Canada and visit briefly, but cannot work there without a work<br>
> visa. If I want medical care while I'm there, I believe it is emergency<br>
> treatment only and I'd have to return to the states to get my insurance to<br>
> cover procedures.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Follow the laws and its not such a bog deal.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Someday, we may be able to come and go between all countries and live and<br>
> work where we please, crossing borders pell-mell, but for now there are many<br>
> reasons for the laws in place in each country governing the comings and<br>
> goings of people.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Brian Kelsay<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> ________________________________<br>
><br>
> From: <a href="mailto:kclug-bounces@kclug.org">kclug-bounces@kclug.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:kclug-bounces@kclug.org">kclug-bounces@kclug.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
> Phil Thayer<br>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 2:09 PM<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:watts@jayhawks.net">watts@jayhawks.net</a>; James Sissel<br>
> Cc: <a href="mailto:kclug@kclug.org">kclug@kclug.org</a><br>
> Subject: RE: Reply from Congressman Emanuel Cleaver concerning Orphan<br>
> WorksActof 2008<br>
><br>
> Really? The Mexicans wrote GNOME? I didn't know that. The comment about<br>
> support for illegal aliens might be construed as racist but, I think it is<br>
> just paranoia about losing a low paying job that nobody else in the US wants<br>
> to do anyways.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> From: <a href="mailto:kclug-bounces@kclug.org">kclug-bounces@kclug.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:kclug-bounces@kclug.org">kclug-bounces@kclug.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
> Jeffrey Watts<br>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 1:52 PM<br>
> To: James Sissel<br>
> Cc: <a href="mailto:kclug@kclug.org">kclug@kclug.org</a><br>
> Subject: Re: Reply from Congressman Emanuel Cleaver concerning Orphan<br>
> WorksAct of 2008<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Espero que no usas GNOME, que fue escrito por los mexicanos, después de<br>
> todo!<br>
><br>
> Espero que algún día la gente pueda superar su racismo hacia hispanos.<br>
><br>
> Jeffrey.<br>
><br>
> P.S. By the way, this is a Linux list. Just in case you've forgotten. Good<br>
> luck in November.<br>
><br>
> On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 11:05 AM, James Sissel <<a href="mailto:jimsissel@yahoo.com">jimsissel@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I've emailed our esteemed Representative several times about various<br>
> issues. His support for illegal aliens, high gas prices and the Socialist<br>
> (oops, Democrats) refusal to do anything, grand theft in the form of taxes<br>
> that he supports and wants to increase, etc. In my humble opinion he needs<br>
> to be replaced during the next election. The man was a horrible Mayor and<br>
> an even worse Congressman. His goal is a Socialist government that will<br>
> control every aspect of our lives (and he's running it, of course). Not<br>
> exactly "open source" philosophy.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
><br>
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><br>
><br>
><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><br>"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine<br>
</div>