<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Luke -Jr <<a href="mailto:luke@dashjr.org">luke@dashjr.org</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d">On Wednesday 12 March 2008, James Sissel wrote:<br>
> Luke -Jr <<a href="mailto:luke@dashjr.org">luke@dashjr.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> Matt 16:18, Our Lord appoints St. Peter to be the first pope and promises<br>
> that that Satan will never at any time prevail over the Church.<br>
><br>
</div>Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"> will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail<br>
against it.<br>
<br>
> Funny, I don't see the word Pope in there, nor Catholic.<br>
<br>
</div>18 "Thou art Peter"... As St. Peter, by divine revelation, here made a solemn<br>
profession of his faith of the divinity of Christ; so in recompense of this<br>
faith and profession, our Lord here declares to him the dignity to which he<br>
is pleased to raise him: viz., that he to whom he had already given the name<br>
of Peter, signifying a rock, St. John 1. 42, should be a rock indeed, of<br>
invincible strength, for the support of the building of the church; in which<br>
building he should be, next to Christ himself, the chief foundation stone, in<br>
quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor; and should have accordingly all<br>
fulness of ecclesiastical power, signified by the keys of the kingdom of<br>
heaven.<br>
<br>
18 "Upon this rock"... The words of Christ to Peter, spoken in the vulgar<br>
language of the Jews which our Lord made use of, were the same as if he had<br>
said in English, Thou art a Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.<br>
So that, by the plain course of the words, Peter is here declared to be the<br>
rock, upon which the church was to be built: Christ himself being both the<br>
principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ,<br>
by building his house, that is, his church, upon a rock, has thereby secured<br>
it against all storms and floods, like the wise builder, St. Matt. 7. 24, 25.<br>
<br>
18 "The gates of hell"... That is, the powers of darkness, and whatever Satan<br>
can do, either by himself, or his agents. For as the church is here likened<br>
to a house, or fortress, built on a rock; so the adverse powers are likened<br>
to a contrary house or fortress, the gates of which, that is, the whole<br>
strength, and all the efforts it can make, will never be able to prevail over<br>
the city or church of Christ. By this promise we are fully assured, that<br>
neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever shall at any<br>
time prevail over the church of Christ.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> Mark 16:15, Christ gives the Church a mandate to teach the world, and makes<br>
> mention of signs to identify His Church (for example, only<br>
> Catholics can cast our demons)<br>
><br>
> Really? Only Catholics can do that? Or maybe a better question should<br>
> be "Can Catholics really do that?" What proof do you have that *anybody*<br>
> can or can't do that? Or for that matter, what proof do you have demons<br>
> even exist?<br>
<br>
</div>There are many well documented and witnessed exorcisms, and in some cases of<br>
demonic possession the possessed person has demonstrated supernatural<br>
abilities.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12315a.htm" target="_blank">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12315a.htm</a><br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> >Acts 2, Christ sends the Holy Ghost to the apostles, making them the<br>
> > Church's first Bishops.<br>
><br>
> Bishops? I don't recall seeing that word.<br>
<br>
</div>My description is of what occured, not the literal text.<br>
You can obviously look up the literal text yourself.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> >Acts 15:1, The first council (the Council of Jerusalem) addresses the<br>
> > first heresy (Judaizers), and eventually St. Peter uses his papal<br>
> > authority, accepted by all present, to give a final resolution.<br>
><br>
> Papal authority? Where does it say that? Or where does it say he's<br>
> actually got *any* "authority"?<br>
<br>
</div>Right, so when St. Peter in the middle of a lot of disputing interrupts and<br>
proclaims a decision, and nobody questions him... they all just got tired of<br>
arguing, or what? Clearly, the only way the described event was even possible<br>
was that all present recognized that St. Peter was not to be questioned upon<br>
coming to a conclusion.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> None of the claims of papal primacy, infallibility, pre-eminence,<br>
> jurisdiction, etc. have any reliable foundation in the New Testament. Nor<br>
> were they assumed to be the right of the Roman bishop in the first<br>
> centuries of the Church. They are later inventions.<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://jmgainor.homestead.com/files/PU/Scr/mt16.htm" target="_blank">http://jmgainor.homestead.com/files/PU/Scr/mt16.htm</a><br>
<br>
</div>"The Church of God which sojourns in Rome to the Church of God which sojourns<br>
in Corinth....If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him<br>
through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression<br>
and in no small danger." Pope Clement of Rome [regn. c A.D.91-101], 1st<br>
Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> Besides, all of this is from the New Testiment. Ask the Jews what they<br>
> think of the New Testiment. So unless you have actual proof from God<br>
> himself all of this is man's faith in what he believes.<br>
<br>
</div>Christ Himself provided this proof:<br>
Matt 12:24-26 "But the Pharisees hearing it, said: This man casteth not out<br>
the devils but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus<br>
knowing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided<br>
against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house<br>
divided against itself shall not stand. And if Satan cast out<br>
Satan, he is divided against himself: how then shall his<br>
kingdom stand?"<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> So what makes what you believe right and what I believe wrong?<br>
<br>
</div>Nothing "makes" things right or wrong. They just *are* right or wrong.<br>
Only the Catholic Church has supernatural proof of its legitimacy.<br>
<br>
Since truth never changes, it follows that any religion which changes its<br>
beliefs is inherently false. What other religion has held to the exact same<br>
doctrine for nearly 2000 years?<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> And therefore, what gives anyone the right to force their beliefs on anyone?<br>
<br>
</div>God gives all rights, and He has not granted anyone else the right nor ability<br>
to force beliefs. Morality, however, is another issue, and it is the<br>
responsibility of our civil authorities to enforce it. And the Church has not<br>
only the right, but a mandate to teach all. After all, if you are not<br>
presented with the truth in the first place, how could you make a decision to<br>
accept or reject it?<br>
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</blockquote></div><br>With due deference to those holding a theological symposium . Perhaps we may spawn a list "filter?" or similar to allow a proper forum for the Judeo-Christian canon dissertations. <br>Yet there IS a matter of what here passes for HERESY! And that being casually voiced by one who may not have grasped their trifling with the darkness itself.<br>
I must warn of a damnable blasphemy and apostate SIN.<br><br>"No matter how "evil" Micro$oft is ... Linux is not the one true OS".<br><br>Friends- THERE we see a grave risk of perdition.<br><br> <br clear="all">
<br>-- <br>Oren Beck<br><br>816.729.3645