Have you seen this!?! Burning saltwater

[Jack]

--- Joe Fish <reverend.joe at gmail.com> wrote:

> Not saying it's impossible, BUT, as a friend of mine
> on this list often used
> to say to me,  I'm from Missouri.
> 
> Ya gotta show me.
> 
> I do *hope* this is a viable solution, though the
> reality is
It is a viable solution today, albeit expensive.

> hydrogen in gaseous form is KNOWN
> to leak from WHATEVER container it's put in at a
> somewhat-alarming rate --
Says who? What's your source on this? I don't buy it.
Hydrogen in a sealed tank isn't going anywhere.

> Car companies think
> plugging your car in is too
> much hassle for Americans?
Although there are lots of people doing it today.
Lot's of people are converting gas-guzzlers into EVs.
Google "Battery Box" to see some of the hits.

> storing hydrogen in the
> vehicle in some chemical form in which its far
> easier to separate out than
> it is in water.  There's been some progress in
> research on this front,
Well easier is a relative term. Yes, there are some
avenues along here. There are many avenues unexplored
also. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fanboy of Hydrogen
Fuel cells. It's a plausible technology, but I think
better batteries are a better solution. I'd rather go
with a simpler solution. Fuel cells will never be
simple. Although I am trying to design one (don't
holde your breath though).


> But its still just that ... RESEARCH.
With prototypes. There is a difference.

> 
> The other problem is that the site doesn't go into
> how much detail about
> just how many solar panels you're gonna need to
> create enough electrical
> power to electrolyze enough hydrogen to power a
It takes about 1KW of electricity to produce 6 cu ft
of H/hr. It also make about 3 cu ft of O, which you
could sell to welders, etc. It can be done cheaper,
but I don't think any of you have access to commercial
power plants.


> SINGLE one-family car, much
You can produce Hydorgen for about $3 per gasoline
gallon equivalent today. You meaning anyone with
electricity in they're house.

Mercedes Benz is gearing up to produce a car in 2010
that "The new B-Class car's electric engine will
generate top output of 136 horsepower and perform on
par with a two-litre petrol engine, the company said.
It will consume the equivalent of 2.9 litres of diesel
fuel per 100 kilometres driven." Impressive.

Although it probably is using some metal hydride and
converting the hydrogen from solid pellets.
Problem is most of those solutions produce some toxic
waste. Lovely.

> less to think of doing for hydrogen as some sort of
> large-scale
> infrastructural solution.   The fact that they're
Pepperidge Farms Bloomfield, Conn plant runs on a
1.2MW Fuel Cell. Before that thay've been using fuel
cells since 2006. When someone tells you it can't be
done because it's prohibitive. Don't believe it. There
are other examples I could find for you.

Hydrogen Fuel cells? A reality today. THe brass ring?
I don't think so.

> I forget the number, but you can look up the square
> footage for the Honda
> FCX one-family pilot project in California -- I
> think its something like
> 1700 square feet (!) of solar panels to create
> enough hydrogen to power that
> one family's car (they fill up about once a week). 
And powering the house too. Right?
That number sounds about right for So Cal, for
complete freedom from the grid. Probably also pumping
occasional power back into the grid.

You do know they have entire cities in the SW running
on Solar energy? Right?

Don't try it in MO.

> that it takes a HUGE amount
> of electrical power to electrolyze a quantity of
No it doesn't.

> hydrogen sufficient for
> pushing a 2000-pound car around for a week using
> fuel cells -- power that
> could be put on the grid and stored in batteries
> much more efficiently, at
No it can't. H produces 52,000 BTU/lb 3 time the
energy of gasoline. It has the highest energy content
of ****ALL**** fuels.

> The point is, like the saying goes, this stuff has
> all been 30 years away
Except it's here today. Now.

> My opinion is that, in the short-to-near term, our
> only viable
> big-ticket-item solution that stands ANY chance of
> getting us through this
> go-around of the energy crunch is CONSERVATION, much
Wrong. The best short term solution for now, is
convert one of your gas guzzlers to EV. It'll cost you
$3000-$10,000 and pay for itself in 2-4 years. With a
vehicle lifetime of 15-50 years (excepting body
failure).